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MaryJanes2ndLastDance

Did anyone read 33 1/3 Southern Accents? What did you think?

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40 minutes ago, martin03345 said:

y. Ignorance of American history is no excuse for defending the South's misguided cause.

What are you talking about? Where did I ever defend the South's misguided cause. And for that matter, misguided doesn't do it justice, it was downright fucking evil.

41 minutes ago, martin03345 said:

Though slavery was the crux of the war, in this song, Tom's not trying to get at that. He's not that deep in his lyrics folks.

You're ignoring the fact that someone could interpret it that way, which, since the Civil War was fought to end slavery this lyric directly deals with and race. I don't know why you refuse to see that even as a possibility for others to have. I don't get it.

 

42 minutes ago, martin03345 said:

And again, just because you have a certain interpretation of things, doesn't mean it's equally acceptable. If it comes from ignorance then your ignorance hinders your ability to understand because you don't have the necessary information to interpret the subject matter. I'm not saying these are your own ideas and interpretations, but if you put them out there, expect people who have a little foresight to shoot them down because they're filled with nonsense. 

I'm not above acknowledging my ignorance, but a discussion of an issue isn't a tacit endorsement, again, I don't understand why you can't see that.

I freely admit that the idea, even as a concept regarding the true motivations of the civil war were as I learned them originally which was the elimination of slavery, but again, discucssing it or any other interpretation, well informed or otherwise again, isn't an endorsement of said concept.

 

cheers

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1 hour ago, martin03345 said:

It's not contradictory at all. That last verse is in reference to Sherman's march to Georgia where he went and scorched the earth and left nothing of use for the South. It has to deal with the war yes, but not race as a whole.

 But the whole war was about race! Again, it's fine if you don't want to interpret the song that way, but surely you can see why others might or if not that, could use it as entry point for the discussion of race...since the song directly references a war about the very subject...! Again, I don't expect you to see it that way but surely you could be open to the idea of why others might...

What else? For me, the irony here is I'm in the middle of a conversation on race and the civil war when I thought the book itself went on too long in those directions, see my initial post and I put Southern Accents  in the cellar along with Echo, Last DJ And Highway Companion. 

Trying to see things from other's perspective to a limited degree can be interesting to me but I"m usually quite clear on what I do believe and won't hesitate to say so: case in point, I thought the set lists for TPATH were largely mediocre overall given the amount of material they had to draw from and the collective talent and ability within the band. That's something I believe. 

cheers

 

 

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Interestingly enough a regular at a place I frequent was reading a book on the Civil War, even took trips to locales from the war and I happened to run into him this evening; when I asked him about the Federal Gov vs State's Rights interpretation; he instantly got mad; not at me but at the idea itself, likened it to Flat Earth Theory. I told him I'd been raised with the idea it was about slavery but given our govt's history and my cynicism towards politics could see it as a possibility. His vehemence on the issue was plain and he went on to quote the Confederacy's vice president directly referencing the fight over slavery. Anyway, there you go, who knows who one may run into in life.

cheers

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10 hours ago, MaryJanes2ndLastDance said:

 But the whole war was about race! Again, it's fine if you don't want to interpret the song that way, but surely you can see why others might or if not that, could use it as entry point for the discussion of race...since the song directly references a war about the very subject...! Again, I don't expect you to see it that way but surely you could be open to the idea of why others might...

What else? For me, the irony here is I'm in the middle of a conversation on race and the civil war when I thought the book itself went on too long in those directions, see my initial post and I put Southern Accents  in the cellar along with Echo, Last DJ And Highway Companion. 

Trying to see things from other's perspective to a limited degree can be interesting to me but I"m usually quite clear on what I do believe and won't hesitate to say so: case in point, I thought the set lists for TPATH were largely mediocre overall given the amount of material they had to draw from and the collective talent and ability within the band. That's something I believe. 

cheers

 

 

For the last time on this subject matter, just because someone may interpret something that way, does not mean their opinion/idea/belief is valid or deserves to be recognized. The idea that "everyone interprets things in their own way and that's fine!" is nonsense if their opinion is based in ignorance. Three quarters of the song is about a failures woe's and the last  verse ties back to his woe's by blaming it on the war and him being southern.

Also, I didn't want to say it earlier because it sounds like I'm  patting myself on the back but seeing as you brought up a amateur historians knowledge on the subject I should point out that I, as well am one too.

On a side note, if anyone wants to listen to an actual complete southern rock concept, check out Drive By-Truckers Southern Rock Opera. It talks about the duality of southern life and culture.

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15 hours ago, martin03345 said:

Nothing there about race folks. Just a drunk who can't get his shit together and blames it all on the fact that he's just born to be a rebel because of his heritage.

This is my favorite song of all time, and after listening to it a billion times, theirs nothing grand about it besides the sound. That's a dichotomy. The sound is grand and happy while the message itself is not.

Snap. Rebels is right up there for me too & I guess I've listened to it a million times... ;) Honey, don't walk out on me, I'm too drunk to follow.  Obviously , TP's far superior, but another song title - "If you leave me, can I come too" (by Mental As Anything, 1981) - also sums up a toxic relationship in dozen words & sinks it into a great piece of music. Also, yes, hats off to Born In The USA, which does similar thing. 

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1 hour ago, martin03345 said:

For the last time on this subject matter, just because someone may interpret something that way, does not mean their opinion/idea/belief is valid or deserves to be recognized. The idea that "everyone interprets things in their own way and that's fine!" is nonsense if their opinion is based in ignorance. Three quarters of the song is about a failures woe's and the last  verse ties back to his woe's by blaming it on the war and him being southern.

I'm not asking you to think someone drawing a connection between race and Rebels is valid, all I'm saying is can't you see why they could when nearly an entire verse is dedicated to "burning cornfields" etc.

You said it yourself, the self-proclaimed "rebel" is blaming it on the war...which is about race! Doesn't mean you have to view the song that way and obviously you don't but I just don't understand why you can't see how others could interpret it that way.

But hey, this ain't a purity test! If you can't, you can't, I won't push on this anymore.

1 hour ago, martin03345 said:

Also, I didn't want to say it earlier because it sounds like I'm  patting myself on the back but seeing as you brought up a amateur historians knowledge on the subject I should point out that I, as well am one too.

 I can appreciate that. It certainly sounded like it as well so I'm glad you said so, I don't think it's patting yourself on the back at all and I respect where you're coming from on the topic.

cheers

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I keep hearing people say that's Southern Rock Opera's good album - will check it out. Oh, another messed-up relationship song summed up in the title = Paul Kelly's What Makes A Sweet Guy Turn So Mean? 

My nomination for songs about post-warfare conflict situations = Levon drumming & singing this masterpiece. 

 

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Also, lobbing this into your rational, calm & measured discussion. It's an eye-witness account by writer called Fred Mills & full article is available https://blurtonline.com/2015/07/fred-mills-tom-petty-and-our-southern-accents/ So, Fred, do tell us, what did you see?

  • "But the Petty concert I’ll always remember most vividly was in 1990, once again in Charlotte. [Jan. 29 to be precise, with Lenny Kravitz opening] In April of the previous year Petty had released his first solo LP, the Jeff Lynne-produced Full Moon Fever, so he was spotlighting a good chunk of that record even though with the exception of guitarist Mike Campbell the members of the Heartbreakers only had cameos on FMF. The band was also doing a lot of the Southern Accents album, from 1985, and much of the same stage design (plantation mansion columns, assorted antebellum/southern touches, etc.) from the Southern Accentstour was still being used. It was during the “Rebels” segment that something totally out of the blue happened.
  • A certain yahoo element had already been making its presence in the crowd known, emitting whoops and raising beer cups whenever Petty would make a regional reference. It was starting to feel like a NASCAR rally in the arena. Now, as the band eased into the song’s signature piano intro, somebody tossed a folded-up object onto the stage. Petty walked over, picked it up, and started unfolding it: a rebel flag, symbol of the Confederacy — and of a whole lot more. He froze, uncertain as to what he should do. Well, wave it proudly at all your fellow Southerners, you could almost hear the collective thought ripple through the air. Instead, Petty walked back to the mic, still holding the flag, and slowly began to speak, talking about how on the Southern Accents tour a few years ago they’d included a Confederate flag as part of the stage set, but since then he’d been thinking about it and decided that it had been a mistake because he understood maybe it wasn’t just a rebel image to some folks. As a low rumble of boos and a few catcalls came out of the crowd, Petty carefully wadded the flag up and concluded, “So we don’t do” — nodding at the flag — “this anymore.” Glaring at it one last time and then chucking it back down, he glanced at the band then launched directly into the next song.
  • Driving home from the concert that night I still could feel the combined chill and thrill I’d gotten earlier. A lesser performer wouldn’t have been able to pull off a simultaneous refutation and affirmation, and in the unexpected duality of sentiment and expectations of the moment, Petty and his Heartbreakers had gone on to perform the song with a visceral resolve imbued equally with grace and grit I hadn’t detected at previous concerts.
  • Turning on the radio, I heard the local classic rock deejay talking about the incident in disparaging terms and inviting listeners to call in and “let Tom Petty know just what we think about him.” In that moment, I felt the anger and defiance of my younger self return, and I wanted to punch the dashboard. Just a few blocks from my house, in my distraction I ran a stop sign, got pulled over by a cop, and received a ticket that led me to having to take a series of classes on highway safety in order to have it dismissed. Thanks, y’all."

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I'll concede that if you read deeply between the lines on that last verse about Sherman's march, you could glean that maybe that person holds racial grudges due to them blaming him being a screw up on the fact that he's "born a rebel". However, most people while racist in the south and in the north at that time, I don't think Tom was getting that deep into the southern conscious because as we see for the rest of the album and from the outtakes, their just takes on being a poor white kid in the south. Most southerners were not rich, slave owners, but they did benefit from the race based class system. You may be a poor white, but at least your not black. Again, though I think Tom is a great song writer, I don't ever think his lyrics at that deep where a subtext needs to be dug up. He's as straightforward of a songwriter you'll ever see and that was his strength.

Like I said, a better approach overall to the whole idea is Southern Rock Opera. If you like TPATH, then they are definitely in your musical wheel house. Patterson Hood and Mike Cooley get at the duality of the South. How they're branded as racist rednecks who are backwards, but how that's not who they are as a whole. How someone like George Wallace can define them for decades and that not be the real image of the south. Or how Wallace himself was considered for a time before his runs at governor to be a liberal judge and attorney and how by the time in the 1980s when he last served governor of Alabama he won 90% of the black vote. It's just a southern thing. Also, like Southern Accents, it does cover bits of Hood's own youth. 

If everyone remembers, Hood did write a great article about Tom after he died and he talked about how when Tom was playing a show in Alabama that he was at, that a drunken fight broke out and Tom chastised the crowd saying, "This shit's why I fucking left the South."

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On 7/31/2019 at 7:04 AM, Big Blue Sky said:

 

I keep hearing people say that's Southern Rock Opera's good album - will check it out. Oh, another messed-up relationship song summed up in the title = Paul Kelly's What Makes A Sweet Guy Turn So Mean? 

My nomination for songs about post-warfare conflict situations = Levon drumming & singing this masterpiece. 

 

Fun Fact - or actually, "Sad Fact" - this is the very last time Levon ever sang that song.  

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