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MaryJane0612

Tom Petty(coat) and the Heartbreakers....

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On September 11, 2018 at 3:48 PM, chimera said:

I sort of agree with you in terms of what hindsight can be useful for, but I do not agree it has only one use.  From a historical standpoint it can be interesting to discuss people and events, to consider how things might have been and why they were the way they were.  But perhaps that's only for people who enjoy speculation.  It sounds like you're not that kind of person.

 Look, this forum is performing a vital public service; mainly protecting everyone we know from being lulled into a stupor by being forced to listen to our TPATH/Mudcrutch opinions, y' know such scintillating discussions as to why they largely played the same set list, were the Foo Fighters originally called the Fooled Again Fighters (no) and when All The Rest is going to be released. (Never)

Think of all the family and friends out there spared from not just hearing another live version of It's Good To Be King (This one's from 99, that's the Echo tour, it's a soundboard) but the actual discussion of how much spontaneity constituted the live version  and how much was pre-planned. 

cheers

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oh no you're not - hey don't be so hard on yerself - nuance is notoriously difficult to read on-screen. maybe i don't know nothing.  

was there maybe some tambourine waving?  also a suffocating weight of crushed velvet in shades of wine & roses? they all shagged each other? allegedly

and those Led Zep guys - something about symbols instead of names (long before Prince)?  

happy days indeed.

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In a way, I felt kinda bad for Stevie (as much as one feels badly for a multimillionaire singer) because my impression is that she really loved TPATH's music and wanted to be in that band instead of her own. But she was for better or worse saddled with tall Col. Sanders and woman on keyboard #2 and Linderhay on...some instrument and had a lot of bad blood and drama.

Whereas TPATH were rippin' it up! Rippin'. Guitar solos, energy, mimimal tambourine wavage. Too Much Ain't Enough, boyo, not Landsliding.

cheers

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yeah I like your logic - can imagine it could've been "damn, do I ever want to be in that band!"

on other hand FMac were pretty darn good in their own way.

similar to overall issue of "how can we be better - do we a) do we sack the drummer OR b) do we - as this band - stick together & see what music we can make?" 

I should be able to summarize this issue better (but am a bit sick)

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1 minute ago, Big Blue Sky said:

I should be able to summarize this issue better (but am a bit sick)

Get better.

My feeling is she wanted to rock out and so connected to Tom's songs and the band's playing it was a genuine need to be in the band. Your earlier point about not inviting herself is pretty good. Most women know the social rules and how uncouth it is to invite oneself along; or at least if they do it, it's on a very subtle level that most guys wouldn't pick up on. But to invite herself to join the band (if that's what happened) shows how much she really wanted to be a part of it.

One could suppose that her having feelings for Tom could be a factor but in truth, she didn't need to be in the band to have a fling or affair or realtionship with him. (And I don't know if she did or not, this in fact being the most thought I've given to Stevie Nicks) I think she just connected with the music on a deep level and was certainly a peer and could be in the band.

It could've worked, maybe as a high harmony singer with Howie or before Howie joined, or maybe even a background singer who joins in every so often or takes a lead. And I think the last thing she'd want to do is jeopardize the band, again, from her perspective she could have many a man, why go for the singer/co-singer in this new iteration of the Heartbreakers? b

But I think she would've disrupted the band's chemistry the same way Jeff Lynne would've if he'd suddenly joined or John Mellencamp or whomever you'd like to pick. A certain sound was created with thos musicians and altering it could ruin it. They were lucky that both Howie and Steve worked out thoug to this day people will debate who was the better match, Stan or Steve.

Intrdoucing someone of Stevei's energy, persona, voice and look would've changed the band and despite good intentions, maybe not for the better. But who knows?

 

Again, it's too bad she didn't do a duet record with Tom (imagine the sales!) with Mike and some other musicians or joined them more frequently on stage every so often.

 

The point is, it seems a bit sad that she was this close to the band, wanted to be in it, but never would be.

 

 

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2 hours ago, MaryJanes2ndLastDance said:

Get better.

My feeling is she wanted to rock out and so connected to Tom's songs and the band's playing it was a genuine need to be in the band. Your earlier point about not inviting herself is pretty good. Most women know the social rules and how uncouth it is to invite oneself along; or at least if they do it, it's on a very subtle level that most guys wouldn't pick up on. But to invite herself to join the band (if that's what happened) shows how much she really wanted to be a part of it.

One could suppose that her having feelings for Tom could be a factor but in truth, she didn't need to be in the band to have a fling or affair or realtionship with him. (And I don't know if she did or not, this in fact being the most thought I've given to Stevie Nicks) I think she just connected with the music on a deep level and was certainly a peer and could be in the band.

It could've worked, maybe as a high harmony singer with Howie or before Howie joined, or maybe even a background singer who joins in every so often or takes a lead. And I think the last thing she'd want to do is jeopardize the band, again, from her perspective she could have many a man, why go for the singer/co-singer in this new iteration of the Heartbreakers? b

But I think she would've disrupted the band's chemistry the same way Jeff Lynne would've if he'd suddenly joined or John Mellencamp or whomever you'd like to pick. A certain sound was created with thos musicians and altering it could ruin it. They were lucky that both Howie and Steve worked out thoug to this day people will debate who was the better match, Stan or Steve.

Intrdoucing someone of Stevei's energy, persona, voice and look would've changed the band and despite good intentions, maybe not for the better. But who knows?

 

Again, it's too bad she didn't do a duet record with Tom (imagine the sales!) with Mike and some other musicians or joined them more frequently on stage every so often.

 

The point is, it seems a bit sad that she was this close to the band, wanted to be in it, but never would be.

 

 

I'm not sure SN and TP did have an affair, just a strong musical chemistry. He was a happily married man with a child at the time she first came on the scene with him and he wrote SDMHA. I think his wife toured with him too. I doubt the opportunity would have arisen and I think SN and TP's wife, JB, became drug fuelled friends, which inspired SN's Edge of Seventeen. I doubt that would have happened if SN was trying to compromise their marriage. The marriage started to break down in the late not earlier 80s. 

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this might be of interest (and lyrics to the song mentioned)

Discussing her friendship with Petty, who helped her record the hit single "Stop Draggin' My Heart Around" in 1981, she said, "I call Tom when I'm upset or questioning my existence on this planet. He can tell me that I'm just having a bad day, to shut up and go to bed, and I'll take it.

"He doesn't lie, and he doesn't say things to flatter people. He just tells you the truth."

However, Dylan doesn't have to say anything to intimidate Nicks, who went along as a non-performing guest when he and Petty toured Australia two years ago.

"I got to watch them put their personalities together, and it was fascinating," she said. "I watched some -- well, not exactly rows -- but a little bit of going back and forth between them."

During one stop, Dylan unexpectedly motioned Nicks onstage. "He put me between him and Tom and started a song and then backed off so I could sing, I was completely and utterly stupefied," she said. "Thank God, my voice worked."

But when Nicks went onstage a second night, Australian officials took exception because she didn't have a work permit. She said she was told that if she kept performing, she "wouldn't be welcome again in Australia."

Those and other experiences Down Under didn't work her way into the songs on "The Other Side of the Mirror," but much of what Nicks writes is rooted in her reality. Thus, "Two Kinds of Love" incorporates aspects of her relationship with Petty, and "Long Way to Go" is a stinging farewell to a former lover (maybe Lindsay Buckingham, her musical and romantic partner when they joined Fleetwood Mac?).

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Time to dive in. Women and other people with social skills may excuse my language, but for most part the Stevie Nicks as a Heartbreaker skit, is general bs built for legend and myth. Benefiting both sides, I'm sure. Myself a big fan of Stevie Nicks, I may also need to remind all of you that at the time she was supposedly putting out for a place in the Heartbreakers, she was a much bigger star than was any of the Heartbreakers, inlcuding Tom. Sure, she fell in loved with their music, pehaps a bit with Tom and his charms. And she was, after all invoved withe Iovine at the time - his producer and soon to be hers - something that oftentimes is understated, or even left out, when Stevie's finding and "annex:ing" Tom. It was an enchanted period for both of them, if I may, and she probably loved Tom and his band and his music in many ways when they were separate entities working close together. But really, what would she do, after the glitter faded, so to speak.. No real love thing was in the card, and as a Heartbreaker she would do what? It would do what to Tom's way to write and visualize his music, band chemistry and song writing ambitions... Nah. It was never a real idea. I refuse to think it was. For anyone.

Further, I think that Stevie's way to say how cool TP&TH were, how great they were, their music - always genuine, I'm sure, of course she dug the Heartbreakers and I'm sure they found both a personal and professional spark during the Iovine sessions for each of their albums, and privately around that time too - that was also a Fleetwood Mac diva positioning herself - when the super success of the mid 70s started to wear off slightly, and when her trying for a solo career was looming - as part of the cool, somewhat edgier and rockier scene that young and energic TP&TH, fresh off Damn The Torpedoes, was part of, and at the same time finding a both proffesional and hot match for some colaboration on her upcoming solo debut. Again, we have Iovine in the background here! Lots of these things may have been accident, but not all of them, surely. 

Personally, I'm not even sure Stevie ever - THEN - saw herself as wanting to become a Heartbreaker for real. From the start it was a good story to say so, though. It was the perfect proof of love, in terms of tying their brands, stories and personal love for each other closer, to make Stevie stick to Tom in the public eye. I'm not saying she didn't absolutely loved the music or the band vibe, but I don't really think it was ever an idea to join, nor that whatever fling she had with Tom was ever seriously going anywhere. I think the whole match between them was professional enough from the start, so to say. Then, through the years, they been able to return to their professional and personal friendship from time to time, but I think they knew - already in 1980/81 that TP&TH had another sound, another groove and another vibe - not enough gypsy aesthetics to go around -  that was just in minor and selective parts fit for Stevie. Had she joined, mind you, the whole vessel would have gone totally elsewhere and I don't think deep down inside neither Tom nor Stevie saw a full time enterprise fitting them both, even then. Trying to picture the cataloge they did produce - after a fact - with Stevie added, is even more impossible, IMO. I guess, also, they both had too much of an ego. Neither of them was made for a full time career splitting the spotlight and main duties of songwriting and singing in half. And again, Stevie Nicks of Fleetwood Mac - she was the bigger star in some ways, when this was supposed to have taken off - would not settle for stopping her writing songs just to spend her years singing live duets on Stop Draggin' My Heart Around and perhaps a few more duet singles down the years, and do the back up to Don't Come Around Here No More for the rest of it.

In fact, if there was ever a true deep understanding of the qualities their blended voices and vibes actually DID HAVE, if there was ever anything deeper than that mutual -almost sister/brother personal connection sometimes spoken off - any further urge beyond that lucky creative moment in history when they made magic , then Tom would have revisited it for real somtimes, would he? If he saw even a glance of what I see, and of what Stevie perhaps saw, he  would have taken the concept places when he had the opportunity to do so. When Stevie was guesting him on stage, or -like in 2006 - on tour, he was of course obliged to treat the auduence with some Stop Draggin' My Heart Around and some insider. But then what? I can think of many original TPATH songs that would have been great to rework into duets for the occasion - to really make use of her presence! But what did we have, then? Some back up singing and dancing? A sad waste of opportunity, as I see it. And I can fondly picture how Tom & Stevie could have recorded a new song, or even an album with specially written and arranged material at some point down the years. Non of this never - as far as I know - even occured to Tom, wich is a shame.

So, basically, I think neither I nor Stevie (let me speak for both of us.. haha!) ever really thought the idea of her as a full time serious Heartbreaker was a good one, although both her and me would have loved to see her work a lot more with Tom. I really think she loved him, that she had a crush on him and would want to work with him a lot more. No doubt about any of that. To Tom, though, I think he was grateful for her friendship and for the success they had, and for whatever their "thing" added to the legend of their career, but I don't think he ever pondered having her in the band - he understood something that is quite important here, namely that nonwithstanding her being a woman, a star in her own right and dancing gypsy  a different fit for the HB - she was also t r o u b l e*, and he didn't want none of that truely inside his creation. Not to mention, to his mind no parts were missing. (Not until the evolution of sound and the Lynne era, would there be a need for anyhting more than what they had - and the multiinstrument offered by Scott, was no shoes to fill by Stevie.) The energy, to Tom's mind, would be too strange, given free range, I'm sure. It's way too complicated and unecessary on so many level. Kinda like this post... 

In short, she might have had a fling. His focus was largely elsewhere in terms of career, but he appriated the friendship and the talent as a peer. They both knew Iovine, closely. And that was it for this legend, I believe. You can't build a 35 years career on that. To have said legend immortalized, making Stevie "Honorary Hearbreaker" was pure genius. They are tied together for eternity, despite not having done that much more than Tom did with say Johnny Cash or Jeff Lynne.

 

-----

* The weird chemistry drama of Fleetwood Mac probably didn't take a turn for the better when Lindsey and Stevie joined.  Some say that's what started it. Their legend of being *ssholes. And that is not all Lindsey's fault, may I add. The FM formula, I believe, fits Stevie fairly well, though. But she is way too strong of a presence to be a group person, in general, I believe. She is something as odd as a solo artist type of genius that needs - for a variety of reasons - a group to help her blossom. Not that her solo albums are bad (some of them are among the best albums of the 1900s, actually) but as a rule, she's been increasingly lost in terms of direction, material to fill out the albums and arrangements, production and such since the mid 80s into the 90s, 00s. In many way an unfulfilled promise of genius, some of thorse records are. On the other hand, she shines so brightly in the FM context, only to give some of the spotlight away to the filler quality of other members (generally speaking, not totally correct!). Frankly the best for her - as I see it - would be a band, that toured as a band, was a band and knew each other as a band, that still allowed her to be the bright shining star. In Fleetwood Mac there is too much general competiton and too many directions, in TPATH there was already Tom Petty. (Then again. No more. Sometimes I think Stevie joining Mike, would have been a better ide than him joining her... so to speak. At least I hope the HB back Stevie up on some recording session or live performance, not focusing on Tom then, but on her. That would be awesome.)

 

 

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9 hours ago, Shelter said:

Time to dive in.

 I'm glad you did, that was a good read. From the perspective of being in the audience, I think what you said is logical and could be quite correct as well, or as correct as any of us can be from where we are in relation to the band.

 

9 hours ago, Shelter said:

like in 2006 - on tour, he was of course obliged to treat the auduence with some Stop Draggin' My Heart Around and some insider. But then what? I can think of many original TPATH songs that would have been great to rework into duets for the occasion - to really make use of her presence! But what did we have, then? Some back up singing and dancing? A sad waste of opportunity, as I see it. 

 Yeah, good points. 

 

9 hours ago, Shelter said:

I guess, also, they both had too much of an ego. Neither of them was made for a full time career splitting the spotlight and main duties of songwriting and singing in half.

 This is pretty much it, yeah.

9 hours ago, Shelter said:

And I can fondly picture how Tom & Stevie could have recorded a new song, or even an album with specially written and arranged material at some point down the years. Non of this never - as far as I know - even occured to Tom, wich is a shame.

 Who knows? Maybe it did and their schedules didn't work out. Or maybe it never had. And...maybe there are a few more duets waiting to be heard like the demo of the Apartment Song from Playback. But even if not, perhaps Stop Draggin' was enough in a way, or better than nothing, maybe a whole album of their duets would've been diminishing returns. I don't think so though. 

 

9 hours ago, Shelter said:

Frankly the best for her - as I see it - would be a band, that toured as a band, was a band and knew each other as a band, that still allowed her to be the bright shining star.

 What she needed was her own Heartbreakers is what I think you're saying.

cheers

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13 hours ago, Big Blue Sky said:

you seem to have inadvertently written "women" - most people know the social rules :)

 True, yes, most people do know the social rules ha ha. But I went with women because of Stevie.

But as I kept at it realized that it didn't have to be Stevie or a woman, could've been a guy as well.

I think they were fortunate Howie fit in so well, same with Steve, though really, and this is veering a bit off-topic, I think Steve really fitted himself to the band and at that point Tom wanted a no-drama, excellent timekeeper which is what he found, someone who could keep up with anything Tom wanted and was willing to be in full service to Mr. Petty's vision, in addition to being easy to get along with, all of which Steve was.

So, they were lucky that Howie fit in, but then, I suppose if he hadn't they would've kept trying out bass players till they found someone that did work. 

Oh, I meant to say, I think Tom and Stevie's voices blended as well as Tom and Mike's guitar playing, creating something uniquely them.

cheers

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there's a cool story that many of you will already know.  It's the one about how Eric Clapton was in Cream & was listening to music by The Band & Bob Dylan.  He says it got to a point where he loved their music & wanted to be in that band and not in Cream anymore...  So - as maybe you can do when you're Mr Clapton - he took a trip to visit The Band in their home-town of Woodstock. 

While he's visiting, he's half hoping they'll say "Hey join us" without him having to ask. But they think it's just a cool visit.  Not being able to read minds.   And Mr Clapton doesn't ask or even hint at it... never directly raising the topic with them at all. 

So now over to Robbie Robertson (guitar player in The Band) some time later - "Well what if if Eric Clapton wanted to join us? Uh - but we already had a guitar player."

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Stevie has said she wrote "If You Were My Love" about wanting to be in TPATH and I can see where it might be true.  If it's just a narrative, it's at least a story she wanted to be true even as she likely knew it couldn't be.  And who hasn't at some time wished for some other situation? 

With our crosses to bear

and our dreams that still live on...

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12 hours ago, MaryJanes2ndLastDance said:

 I'm glad you did, that was a good read.

Thank you for the praise. A sudden burst of typing, the old Shelter way. Glad you appreciated the effort, found some sense within.

Good to see you back, btw. Been gone fishing, have ya?

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