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MaryJanes2ndLastDance

Wildflowers (the album) and a bunch of other stuff

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2 hours ago, MaryJanes2ndLastDance said:

I wonder if You Wreck Me became a concert regular because the crowd loved it or Tom did or both. It even showed up at residencies, I don't know if there's a show after the WF tour where they didn't play it

Interestingly, "You Wreck Me" dropped out of the 2010 tour pretty early on. When it was played at the first few shows, it was in its usual spot as the first song of the encore. When it got dropped, however, "Runnin' Down a Dream" got moved from being the final song of the main set to the first song of the encore. This precedent was set in 2008 because "You Wreck Me" was the tour opener on that tour. In 2010, that pattern continued: "Refugee" closed the man set and "Runnin'" started the encore.

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12 hours ago, mikemono said:

Interestingly, "You Wreck Me" dropped out of the 2010 tour pretty early on. When it was played at the first few shows, it was in its usual spot as the first song of the encore. When it got dropped, however, "Runnin' Down a Dream" got moved from being the final song of the main set to the first song of the encore. This precedent was set in 2008 because "You Wreck Me" was the tour opener on that tour. In 2010, that pattern continued: "Refugee" closed the man set and "Runnin'" started the encore.

I'm surprised, thanks for sharing. I realize I didn't even know there was a 2010 tour or forgot it completely. I even saw some shows without American Girl which is also unusual. 

cheers

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12 hours ago, Big Blue Sky said:

For those of you who are fascinated by set-lists.

I would shift Foo Fighters and TPATH into the "limited variety" though.

This from the site is funny:

[Incidentally it appears it’s very rare for bands to reverse their setlists — the only incident we could find was this anecdotal setlist from the Pixies which was apparently a reverse of the previous night's set, with the band walking off after the encore (the first song).]

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19 hours ago, MaryJanes2ndLastDance said:

wonder if You Wreck Me became a concert regular because the crowd loved it or Tom did or both. It even showed up at residencies, I don't know if there's a show after the WF tour where they didn't play it. I like the song and depending on my mood can take it or leave because I've listened to it so many times on live recordings. That said, it's pretty amazing how Tom came up with something memorable using very basic chords and simple lyrics. I guess one could say that of his whole career, it's pretty incredible.

As a studio track, I consider "You Wreck Me" one of Petty's (or Petty/Campbell's) lesser songs.  In concert I've been a lot warmer toward it, because it brings a lot of energy to the shows, especially after some of the slower and frankly drearier numbers that characterized a lot of the post-Stan concerts.  

I think one reason it was such a staple of shows ever since its origin, is that essentially everyone in the audience at least "sort of" liked it, some loved it, and no one outright hated it.  Plus once they started playing it regularly, it became expected at every show.    It's bright and cheery, and it brightens up the shows when it's played.  But it's a "slight" song IMO.  Not that that's such a bad thing.     

But I'll also say that I doubt it would be a significant song if not for all the great, more serious and more complex songs from TPATH.  Meaning that if a band just starting out released it (as an entirely new song, not a cover), I doubt it would make much of a ripple in the overall song pond.  It's not without merit - I like the "high school dance, corduroy pants" part - that's original at least.  And the lead guitar work is cheerful, for lack of a better word.  It's a "feel good" song.  So I wouldn't go overboard on analyzing the lack of complexity.

I don't think it's fair though to focus on the simple chords and simple lyrics as being representative of Petty's career.  Musically I feel Petty's songs are more complex than that, and instrumentally the Heartbreaker's contributions have been complex as a whole.  Yes they generally play for the song rather than showing off as virtuosos, but when you listen to the creativity of these guys and their feel for the music, it's "simple" only in the way a chess game among master level players is simple just because the rules of chess are simple, or because each individual move is simple.    They often played as a 6 piece band - with either Phil Jones or Scott Thurston as the 6th piece - and it all came together beautifully.   Stan's drum patterns alone were often quite complex in the context of an entire album or entire concert, same for Benmont's keyboard work and Mike's guitar.  In fact the musical strength for me of "Hypnotic Eye" is not the written melody but the complex and well-integrated instrumentation.   

As far as lyrics, those are deceptively simple too.  Bob Dylan wrote complex, frankly cryptic lyrics, with some clever wordplay such as rhyming "diplomat"  (on the "chrome horse") with "Siamese Cat".  But for me Petty was a much more appealing lyricist than Dylan, because Petty could reach people in a straightforward way, using simple phrases to so effectively connect with people's emotions.  "She threw down her golden band, crushed it with her feet into the sand" uses simple phrasing, yet hits home much more than those of an obscurely clever wordsmith.  "Dreams fade, hope dies hard" from the same song - five simple words, but who else put them together like that?  And so many Petty songs are like that, on various topics.  "My life's worth more than the minimum wage".  "Louisiana rain is falling just like tears, running down my face, washing out the years".  "I don't wanna end up in a room all alone, don't want to end up someone that I don't even know" - "Lover I await the day, good fortune comes our way, and we ride down the King's Highway".  "Take this chance, take this dream, baby take this heart - deliver me". "I saw you singing to no one, I saw you dancing all alone, one day you belonged to me, next day I just wouldn't know; One day all the rules will bend, and you and I will meet again".  And on and on, through so many songs - simple words, but certainly not simple thoughts.  But I guess that is what you are saying - Tom always came up with something memorable in his songs, without resorting to overly complex chords or lyrical gimmickry to make (or obscure) his point.     

 

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Umphree's McGee "experiments with many musical styles, including rock, metal, funk, jazz, blues, reggae, electronic, bluegrass, and folk." 

Tsk, oh dear...

7 hours ago, MaryJanes2ndLastDance said:

I would shift Foo Fighters and TPATH into the "limited variety" though.

...statistics & hard cold facts are so annoying like that.  

 

excellent lyrics quoted there same-old-drew! Wildflowers album has excellent song writing too! Well, my copy sure does. 

3 hours ago, TheSameOldDrew said:

As far as lyrics, those are deceptively simple too.  Bob Dylan wrote complex, frankly cryptic lyrics, with some clever wordplay such as rhyming "diplomat"  (on the "chrome horse") with "Siamese Cat".  But for me Petty was a much more appealing lyricist than Dylan, because Petty could reach people in a straightforward way, using simple phrases to so effectively connect with people's emotions.  "She threw down her golden band, crushed it with her feet into the sand" uses simple phrasing, yet hits home much more than those of an obscurely clever wordsmith.  "Dreams fade, hope dies hard" from the same song - five simple words, but who else put them together like that?  And so many Petty songs are like that, on various topics.  "My life's worth more than the minimum wage".  "Louisiana rain is falling just like tears, running down my face, washing out the years".  "I don't wanna end up in a room all alone, don't want to end up someone that I don't even know" - "Lover I await the day, good fortune comes our way, and we ride down the King's Highway".  "Take this chance, take this dream, baby take this heart - deliver me". "I saw you singing to no one, I saw you dancing all alone, one day you belonged to me, next day I just wouldn't know; One day all the rules will bend, and you and I will meet again".  And on and on, through so many songs - simple words, but certainly not simple thoughts.  But I guess that is what you are saying - Tom always came up with something memorable in his songs, without resorting to overly complex chords or lyrical gimmickry to make (or obscure) his point.     

 

 

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1 hour ago, Big Blue Sky said:

...statistics & hard cold facts are so annoying like that.  

The first thing you learn about statistics is how malleable they are. Wasn't a certain casino owner's presidential victory statistically doubtful?

That's not even getting to the word 'varied' and how they're using it.

But ignoring that, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers were far from adventurous on stage. This is a band that stopped playing Fault Lines after one attempt, All Or Nothin' after four and Rhino Skin after ten. A band with rare exception ended nearly every set with the Refugee/Running combo and later the ISHKI/Ref/Run combo. A band where Tom promised to dig deep before tours and not deliver. If you're going to look at the their three night final stand at the Hollywood Bowl and call that varied, then fine, have at it. If you're going to call a band's sets varied when you could predict when Learning To Fly or YDKHIF popped up, well again, that's up to you. 

I wouldn't. I don't.

What interests me though, is why some fans have a problem with this criticism. First, it's a minority opinion, most people who went to the shows were happy to hear the largely same songs from tour to tour. Same with most people here, the joy of seeing Tom and the boys enough for them, that they could see the same show on multiple nights and still enjoy it.

And that's fine, the criticism of the set list isn't a criticism of those who enjoy it or just accept it.

It's a simple observation that relative to the number of good songs they wrote, they barely touched what they could've played. A legitimate if moot critique during tours and one that is even more pointless since the band is gone.

But the real question to ask, is why does the set list critique seem to ruffle feathers? Why would anyone possibly care if me or anyone else critiques it. Sure, if one wanted to have a discussion about it, and say why they enjoy largely hearing the same songs on consecutive nights on a tour, or from tour to tour, that's fine, discussion is what this place is all about.

If that's the intent, it hasn't come across to me; it feels more like...stop grousing! Which is a valid perspective to have, but last I checked, no one's forcing anyone to read the same ole regurgitated set list discussions. 

Regardless of what I think of their classification, I'm glad you sent that link. But I think a certain segment of Foo fighters fans and TPATH fans, maybe not the majority, but some, would definitely have a good belly laugh over them being classified as "varied."

cheers

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5 hours ago, TheSameOldDrew said:

As a studio track, I consider "You Wreck Me" one of Petty's (or Petty/Campbell's) lesser songs.

It initially stood out to me after the disappointing run of songs on Wildflowers as something exciting! A faster beat, a rockin' riff, all right! Since then, I've liked it, gotten sick of it and liked it once more depending on mood but I think the bridge and outro chords are something special. I've more to say on this later...

cheers

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2 hours ago, MaryJanes2ndLastDance said:

It initially stood out to me after the disappointing run of songs on Wildflowers as something exciting! A faster beat, a rockin' riff, all right! Since then, I've liked it, gotten sick of it and liked it once more depending on mood but I think the bridge and outro chords are something special. I've more to say on this later...

cheers

I like it, but I prefer "Think about me" which uses the "You Wreck me" riff first...

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9 hours ago, MaryJanes2ndLastDance said:

would definitely have a good belly laugh over them being classified as "varied."

I'm rolling on the floor right now.

 

10 hours ago, Big Blue Sky said:

...statistics & hard cold facts are so annoying like that.  

 

As in radical opposites, you mean.. statistics vs hard cold facts?

Here I was, thinking all these years that Tom Petty wrote "The Damage You've Done" about statistics.

Seriously, though. Statistics is a b*#ch, isn't it. Or at least it can be. It's also great (something I think the song "Handle with Care" is about). For one thing, I'd love to see that same chart with at least a handful of useful definitions added, to be sure what it all means and where it all comes from. 

Where I come from, there is a big neon sign on a brick wall saying "R-e-c-i-d-e-n-c-i-e-s-?" that starts to flicker and flash when I read above graphics. As if it wants to tell me something. Smoke comes out of it. Very annoying, indeed. So I pull the plug on ther darn thing and then press "Print TPATH statistics" once morem to see what happens to the numbers.. Woooah!!!!.........   

 

17 hours ago, MaryJanes2ndLastDance said:

complaining about complaints?

You really had to go on complaining about complaints over complaining, didn't you.  

Nah. But really. Complaining for the sake of complaining was always useless. There is a point to that. Just listing what you don't like, without context, won't do much good. On the other hand, discussing double standards, hollow morals, the nature of rock'n'roll, expanding on thoughts or just wallow eloguently in lost opportunities in general - for the sake of keeping those opportunities in high prais and regard, if nothing else - doesn't have to be without thought provoking angles, originality or merit, as I see it. Of course there will always be teenage idols, that can't be made accountable, more over there will always be Gene Simmons dolls, and Bob Dylan Nobel prizes too. It's all good. It is what it is. But sometimes it's just not quite what it is, is it? And what's wrong with acknowledging as much? When a late era Brian Johnson invokes "rock'n'roll" with regards to his thourougly market analyzed product, or when Tom Petty tells his audience "tonight we're gonna dig real deep", I personally just find it faschinating and worthy some pondering, a few various stones worthy of turning, to see what we are REALLY looking at. No offense. It's just that I love the music too much to see it cornered, if only by degrees, in some cases. Speaking of stones.. I can dearly promise all that if indeed it was only rock'n'roll, I'd like it, I'm sure. Because that is what it's suppose to be. As for calling out hypocricy, I suppose I learned from some of the best in the field. As for turning stones, I guess I'm just an obnoxious little runt. Sorry. 

With regards to citisism about Wildflowers expressed here, I don't agree, certainly. I still think the various attempts being made, in connection to said critisism, to tie it to the musical development of TPATH, the drum sound, the techincal aspects, production aspects and what not, as well as the preceived sudden change in TP as a songwriter, is very well found and interesting things to discuss, nevertheless. I don't see it as single minded whining about how bad Wildflowers is for the most parts. I see the wider implications and levels of listening and understanding and even when I don't agree at all about what any of it means to me, it tells me something about the the over all TPATH story, that I find very fascinating. Not that anyone here need my defence, but just for the record. 

With regards to TPATH live set, it's all theoretical at this point anyway, all too late. Kinda old and worn since way back anyway, most dimensions visited and covered at length. Not least by myselfm and again, for the record. As an old and obsolete issue it's a lot less important. Right! It's all just a shadow in my mind these days, I have to say. It still can be interesting though, to a degree. I still think it is important, as part of a pattern and wider industry concerns, the future of that certain brand of music and people that I'm sure we all love so much... After all, how can we as a faceless crowd ever help it all from going extinct, if we just passively (or even happily) just accept what the ready packed market logic is slowly doing to anything with a soul, a heart or a brain? What have we become if we just take what Brian Johnson suggests - about stage light computer algorithms being the essential outter boundary for what's possible today in what used to be a next to eternal unisverse - for an actual fact? It just seem so counterproductive to me, trying to hush people who would question a thing like that, who would still want to discuss the few remaining living aspects of art within the main stream, as it were. I suppose it's in all aspects of life now, for that matter.. from global warming to global numbing. Either way, no matter the level or field.. it starts with you. You I say.

In short, yes, I know and always knew that people in all eras toured with schticks. Those people, however, rarely opened their schticks by saying how important it was to them not to do schticks and how tonight they really were not gonna do a schtick. Somewhere in that.. enter void.. enter loop...

Thank you and good luck!

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8 hours ago, Shelter said:

With regards to citisism about Wildflowers expressed here, I don't agree, certainly. I still think the various attempts being made, in connection to said critisism, to tie it to the musical development of TPATH, the drum sound, the techincal aspects, production aspects and what not, as well as the preceived sudden change in TP as a songwriter, is very well found and interesting things to discuss, nevertheless. I don't see it as single minded whining about how bad Wildflowers is for the most parts. I see the wider implications and levels of listening and understanding and even when I don't agree at all about what any of it means to me, it tells me something about the the over all TPATH story, that I find very fascinating. Not that anyone here need my defence, but just for the record. 

Nicely said and I agree. And while not needed, the defense is appreciated.

cheers

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16 hours ago, Zargo said:

I like it, but I prefer "Think about me" which uses the "You Wreck me" riff first...

Interesting comparison.

I don't know, I guess it kinda sounds like the same three chords underneath maybe but the rhythm is different. I like Think About Me quite a bit though. I suppose putting the songs next to one another Think sounds a bit busier and more involved whereas YWM sounds more stripped back and is a pounding driving song, where as the Let Me Up track has more of that "chamber music" feel as Benmont called it of the different instruments all doing something different while complimenting the main riff.

 Perhaps too this ties into Drew's take on the depth he finds in the Let Me Up songs when he listens to it.

Is it those  chords that make them sound similar to you? They almost sound a bit buried in the Let Me Up track compared to YWM. Oh wait, maybe you mean the part around "You better believe..." that sounds more similar to You Wreck Me?

cheers

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On September 1, 2019 at 3:28 PM, TheSameOldDrew said:

I doubt it would make much of a ripple in the overall song pond.

Interesting. You may be right in that the song benefits as coming from Tom Petty and wouldn't have made half the impression from a new band. I just don't know; it's like when people mess with the track listing of Full Moon Fever, I'm so used to it as is, I won't accept variations.  Certainly listening to the studio version now it's a very bright and cheery track and sounds fresh since I'm so used to hearing the live versions. I just don't if I'd have liked it had someone else written it. 

On September 1, 2019 at 3:28 PM, TheSameOldDrew said:

I don't think it's fair though to focus on the simple chords and simple lyrics as being representative of Petty's career.  Musically I feel Petty's songs are more complex than that, and instrumentally the Heartbreaker's contributions have been complex as a whole.

I think the complexity is largely hidden or even nearly subliminal, as when I watched some making of tracks online featuring Benmont and he broke down how the different parts worked and I heard things I wasn't even aware of. I think perhaps, you and I are just reading different things when we're discussing simple or complex. For me, it's less about the two terms and more I would say the way they blended simple parts taken on their own together is the artistry. In fact, even coming up with the right set of notes around what each of them was doing was an artform all its own.

When I say simple, I mean songs that are composed of simple riffs to play or just basic chords, though I guess Tom sometimes used unusual chords, but the point is, what they did with them to me, is quite good...! 

As a contrast, I'd say a Rush song is complex compared to a Tom Petty song. More involved parts, more complicated riffs and so on but I don't view complex as better than simple, actually, I really loves simple music. Again, it's maybe because simple sometimes has a negative connotation to it. Ramones songs are simple but they rock! 

On September 1, 2019 at 3:28 PM, TheSameOldDrew said:

They often played as a 6 piece band - with either Phil Jones or Scott Thurston as the 6th piece - and it all came together beautifully.   Stan's drum patterns alone were often quite complex in the context of an entire album or entire concert, same for Benmont's keyboard work and Mike's guitar.  In fact the musical strength for me of "Hypnotic Eye" is not the written melody but the complex and well-integrated instrumentation.   

Nicely said, I pretty much agree, though I don't think of Mike and Benmont's playing aside from some solos live as complex, though they could be if they so chose. I guess Mojo was a big stretch for the band and for Mike's playing but that's another topic.

On September 1, 2019 at 3:28 PM, TheSameOldDrew said:

As far as lyrics, those are deceptively simple too.  Bob Dylan wrote complex, frankly cryptic lyrics, with some clever wordplay such as rhyming "diplomat"  (on the "chrome horse") with "Siamese Cat".  But for me Petty was a much more appealing lyricist than Dylan, because Petty could reach people in a straightforward way, using simple phrases to so effectively connect with people's emotions. 

I like both simple and complex or cryptic lyrics. I'm fine with both, it's how they work within the music, in fact, for me, the quality of the latter creates an emotional feeling with cryptic or complex wordplay lyrics too. I might not know what is really being said but I don't really care.

But back to Tom, yes, I think he had a gift to come up with perfect simple phrases and meld them to the music. I think it's in the Zollo book where he says that if it was really so simple more people would do it. Learning To Fly has simple chords and simple lyrics but it all works together just fine. And I agree, he hits the emotional target with a great many people. However, and I'm not even a fan of Dylan, but I'd say that he connects as well, maybe with simple lyrics in some songs (I don't know, just a guess) but also with his cleverness, and not just because a listener gets a reference or finds the topic interesting but because his lyrical imagery is powerful enough to stir the emotions even if at first listen they sound like gibberish. Like I said, I'm not a Dylan fan but I could see this being the case.

And really, I think both are fine, it's variety, spice, life, right?!

On September 1, 2019 at 3:28 PM, TheSameOldDrew said:

"She threw down her golden band, crushed it with her feet into the sand" uses simple phrasing, yet hits home much more than those of an obscurely clever wordsmith.  "Dreams fade, hope dies hard" from the same song - five simple words, but who else put them together like that?  And so many Petty songs are like that, on various topics.  "My life's worth more than the minimum wage".  "Louisiana rain is falling just like tears, running down my face, washing out the years".  "I don't wanna end up in a room all alone, don't want to end up someone that I don't even know" - "Lover I await the day, good fortune comes our way, and we ride down the King's Highway".  "Take this chance, take this dream, baby take this heart - deliver me". "I saw you singing to no one, I saw you dancing all alone, one day you belonged to me, next day I just wouldn't know; One day all the rules will bend, and you and I will meet again".  And on and on,

I agree, yes, very good lyrics.I prefer the slow version of Kings Highway but even if there was only the fast version that's still some good lines!

 Again, to me, simple rock music is a compliment.

Enjoying a Metallica song is fun too, there's plenty of room for wild histronic soloing and multiple guitar parts, complex lyrics, simple lyrics, three chord songs...it all comes down to taste but certainly discussing each one's take on the music can be interesting, even when there's disagreement.

But I think we're more on the same page than not on this one when it comes to TPATH. 

cheers

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On September 1, 2019 at 3:28 PM, TheSameOldDrew said:

Tom always came up with something memorable in his songs, without resorting to overly complex chords or lyrical gimmickry to make (or obscure) his point.   

Oh yeah. It's how Mike and Benmont came up with their parts, even if it were a simple chord from the latter or a few perfectly timed notes from the former...they were memorable parts!

Good point about Stan as well, it seems like perhaps he had some of the more complex parts relative to his bandmates and this complexity, while playing just behind the beat, balanced against the simplicity, made his drumming stand out and be so cherished by the fans that to this day people will still lament his firing. 

But I think complex chords and lyrical obfuscation are valid too.

cheers

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Well, now you seem recovered - nice resilience, good coping skills - I'm gonna say I found it really rather amusing. Even if this is insensitive of me. Still laughing at, what for me, were a couple of beautiful posts. 

Personally, I approve of idea of stats & analysis. Not so thrilled when numbers are against me. Who is? But that's for another conversation - & in all probability there's a significant statistics forum out there for that. 

Anyway, I could see you were pain. To be mentioning political elections? Ouch. Ya gotta be hurting. 

Still, there is obviously much that people want to say on setlists. I'll try not to deliberately poke the bears or rattle the cage. 

:-) 

 

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10 hours ago, MaryJanes2ndLastDance said:

Interesting comparison.

I don't know, I guess it kinda sounds like the same three chords underneath maybe but the rhythm is different. I like Think About Me quite a bit though. I suppose putting the songs next to one another Think sounds a bit busier and more involved whereas YWM sounds more stripped back and is a pounding driving song, where as the Let Me Up track has more of that "chamber music" feel as Benmont called it of the different instruments all doing something different while complimenting the main riff.

 Perhaps too this ties into Drew's take on the depth he finds in the Let Me Up songs when he listens to it.

Is it those  chords that make them sound similar to you? They almost sound a bit buried in the Let Me Up track compared to YWM. Oh wait, maybe you mean the part around "You better believe..." that sounds more similar to You Wreck Me?

cheers

I'm thinking about the riff playing during the singing of the title in the chorus. 1.28 - 1.35 for example. Then listen to 1.35 - 1.46 of You Wreck Me. Both riffs then feature again prominently at the end of each song.  Tnink About Me is a much busier song, as you say. You have to love lyrics like "Your boyfriend got a big red car. Got a compact disc, got a VCR."

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It seems it was yesterday when Wildflowers was released... I love this album.

That feeling of change. That mixture of sadness and hope. Most of all; the hope. Wonderful music and wonderful lines. Under my feet the grass is growing; it's time to move on... We gotta get to a higher place if we wanna survive the weather... It's wake up time, time to open up your eyes, and rise and shine... What would I give to start all over again... A bunch of lines just like that. Sadness and hope. But most of all the hope. I think the line which defines the whole thing best: Everything changed, then changed again. As always.

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