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Wildflowers (the album) and a bunch of other stuff

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10 hours ago, Big Blue Sky said:

Not so thrilled when numbers are against me

In the absence of defintions and background detail, numbers are really harmless, don't worry. Should they smell blood, gather their furry friends and actually turn on you, though, run for your life! Or just play dead and they will go away. Or wait.. I am thinking bear here.. But it's really the same principle. Don't let an abstract pattern of dots scare you, my friend. It means absolutely nothing. Go in peace.

10 hours ago, Big Blue Sky said:

in all probability there's a significant statistics forum out there for that. 

Yes, let's head over there and ask them to kindly show our friends over at ww.tableau.com how these things are supposed to be done in order to actually mean anything.

Oh, eh.. tableau.com IS such a site. Darn. Shame on them.

TP said it best: You believe what you want to believe.  

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12 hours ago, Zargo said:

1.28 - 1.35 for example. Then listen to 1.35 - 1.46 of You Wreck Me. Both riffs then feature again prominently at the end of each song.  Tnink About Me is a much busier song, as you say. You have to love lyrics like "Your boyfriend got a big red car. Got a compact disc, got a VCR."

I hear it; not the main chord progression of You Wreck Me but another set in the song and at the end. Yeah, those are funny lyrics. Most of Let Me Up is swagger and attitude. 

cheers

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16 hours ago, Mr Timba said:

But most of all the hope. I think the line which defines the whole thing best: Everything changed, then changed again. As always.

I can appreciate it. Aside from my take on the album, I understand why it connected with so many people over the years and on top of that, could be their best sounding record or at least up in the top three. Thanks for sharing.

cheers

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I don't know if it is his/their best album (for me it is also a Heartbreakers album). I'm not a fan of rating things. It is a really special one, that's for sure. At least for me. :)

Now we are awaiting for the "All the rest" collection. I don't know what kind of idea Tom did have in mind about "All the rest". A kind of bootleg? (Alt takes plus unknown songs) Or maybe a longest secuence with the songs that fell out after he abandoned the "double album" idea?

I guess the best outtakes are into "She's the one". So not so many songs in the vault. There isn't a hidden gem, I guess. Tom is not Bob Dylan. He always put the best songs into the album.

I prefer the bootleg idea. Alt takes (real alt takes, no alt mixes) plus the unknown songs. All the rest: "The complete Wildflowers sessions".

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9 hours ago, Mr Timba said:

Tom is not Bob Dylan. He always put the best songs into the album.

I didn't realize Bob Dylan was holding back some of his best songs.  I agree that Tom is not Bob Dylan, and that's a good thing IMO.  I realize that Dylan wrote some great songs, but I think he's vastly overrated (sorry, just an opinion, yours might vary from that).  They are different types of songwriters and performers, but for my taste it's vastly in Petty's favor, not Dylan's.

As far as Tom leaving off great songs from the album, what about "Casa Dega", "Ways to Be Wicked", "Waiting for Tonight", "Keeping Me Alive", and "Turning Point"?  Those all wound up on the Playback boxed set, but they were left off the original albums.

Furthermore, "Don't Do Me Like That" was left off the first 2 albums and might have been left off DTT if a sound engineer hadn't suggested it for inclusion.  "Louisiana Rain" likewise was held through 2 albums before landing on DTT.  "The Best of Everything" was left off Hard Promises, not considered for Long After Dark, and finally made it to Southern Accents with horns added (originally intended for a film score).  "Trailer" was finally included on a Mudcrutch album but it was left off Southern Accents (it too made it to the boxed set).  Then there's the booted "Save Me" which sounds like it could have been a great song. 

So who knows what else there could be.  Springsteen did a "Tracks" album, I don't have it (I like a lot of Springsteen but not as much a Petty), that had a huge number of songs which hadn't been on an album - 66 in all.  There are even rumors of a "Tracks 2" being prepared for release.  So maybe Petty has something.  I'm not holding my breath on that, but you never know.  "For Real" was a surprise release (at least to me).   

 

     

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Oh, how this thread really takes us places, hu.

 

20 hours ago, Mr Timba said:

Tom is not Bob Dylan. He always put the best songs into the album.

Yeah, no. That is really just not right, as I see it. 

I mean, it's right that Petty is not Dylan.* But Tom too certainly DID leave some of his best stuff - if more or less finished, at times - off the released albums. Drew's list above begins to tell the tale, doesn't it! Further we have stuff like Lost In Your Eyes, Surrender, Keep A Little Soul, Walkin' From The Fire, Somewhere Under Heaven, Leave Virigina Alone (although, admittedly I've never heard Tom's own version), Lonesome Dave, Sweet William, Gainesville, I Don't Belong, Home, Mystery of Love, Bus To Tampa Bay, Looking for Daddy, The Woods, Special Place... to mention some of the most obvious ones.

Now I would not go as far as suggesting that all of those songs mentioned by Drew and myself are Tom's very finest. But enough of them are good enough, so to speak.. to steal a spot or two, on an album or two, from titles that got released instead. At least a good handful of them are indeed among his very best, I'd say.

That is, not always did Tom put neither all there was, nor all the best stuff on his albums. Just for the record.

 

 

---

*Although he's very good at a few things that may be considered typical aspects of the vast Dylan spectra, but that is for another discussion (perhaps in this thread, though, who knows?! :D ) Leaving some of his very best stuff on the cutting room floor though... Dylan is hard to beat in that particular sport. He mastered it and is legendary for it. Between the likes of Moonshiner, The Death of Emmett Till and Blind Willie McTell and the orginal take of When The Night Comes Fallin or Series of Dreams, Dignity and Red River Shore.. it just all the top of the ice berg...

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25 minutes ago, Shelter said:

 

That is, not always did Tom put neither all there was, nor all the best stuff on his albums. Just for the record.

Could you possibly take another run at this? The negative negatives double-or-nothing have me scratching my head as to your meaning. ❤️

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13 minutes ago, Big Blue Sky said:

Could you possibly take another run at this? The negative negatives double-or-nothing have me scratching my head as to your meaning. ❤️

Writing in a second or third language is impressive when Shelter does it. Here is my attempt with the translation below:

 

Je pense a Tom Petty. Il est tres bon musician. Il joue aux guitar et vox. Il n'est pas gross. Quelle j'ecoutes Tom's musique je suis et bon temps. Vraiment, Hypnotic D'oil est le magnifuqe record a outre records pour Tom Petty et les Heartbreakers. Je pense le set list est mal. Pourqoi ils sons bon musiue ne joue pas. Pourquoi pas, je ne sais pas. J'ecoute Tom Petty et les Heartbreakers au trois monthes aux 'heure.

 

----

I think about Tom Petty. He is very good musician. He plays guitar and vox. He is not fat. What I listen to Tom's music I am and good time. Really, Hypnotic Oil is the record breaking record for Tom Petty and Heartbreakers. I think the set list is wrong. Why they sound good music does not play. Why not, I do not know. I'm listening to Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers every three months on the hour.

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Yeah, maybe "always" is not the best word. This is my fault!

Yes, there are a bunch of great outtakes. It's hard to understand why Casa Dega was only a B side. A really great song, and better than some of the songs of DTT. Same with Trailer. It could be one of the great numbers of SA. (It was a victim of the chaotic moment, I guess). Waiting for tonight is a great song, but to my taste that song does't fit well into "Full moon fever". (It is a FMV outtake?).

Same with Gainsville on Echo. I consider Bus to Tampa Bay the best outtake. Maybe it don't fit well on HE... but it is a really, really good song.

The comparison between Tom and Bob, in terms of "choose the right song", is in favour of Tom. :) (I terms of songwriting... I don't like making comparisons, they are quite different, and I like both).

Keeping me alive is one of my favourite songs. I love the new mix included in the new box. I also like so much the previous one included on Playback. I love this song maybe for the same reason that I love Dylan's "New morning" album. The mood of the song, in Dylan's words "oh, what a wonderful feeling just to know that you are near!"

But with only that line about how hard is to put gas in the car... Tom beats Dylan in terms of "connection with you" in this specific song. Tom is Tom, and Bob is Bob. :)

PS. God's gift to man! I love this song. Not an outtake, an abandoned one... But I think it is another great song by Tom.

 

What I want to say is that I guess there is not a hidden gem just like in Dylan's Desire album "Abandoned Love" or Up to me from Blood on the tracks. Talking about Wildflowers, maybe (or for sure) there is some unkonwn good song but not a masterpiece from Tom. The best songs from that sessions are into the album. (I guess) I also want to hear Tom's take of Leave Virginia Alone. 

 

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The best version of "Keeping Me Alive" is the mix from the Runnin' Down A Dream bonus album. It has the best mix and blend of Mike and Tom's 12 string playing. And as a great of a song as it is, Iovine was right, it didn't fit Long After Dark at all. If anything, they should've just re-recorded it for Wildflowers and drop "Don't Fade On Me".

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Interesting ideas there, Martin. However. There will be no dropping of Don't Fade On Me from my Wildflowers album. It's a wonderful song. Lyrically, he's noticing a much-loved friend's slide into losing it to something like depression or addiction. "You can lose it without knowing" and "The sun is overhead, but today you are too weary to even leave your bed."  And musically, marvellous. 

Plus, on Wildflowers album this song is a natural partner for Hard On Me. 

I could quote all of Hard On Me, but you already know it, so hum along in your own head. Let's see - lyrics - in essence it's the same desperate situation - but now it's from the other person's point of view. And they're not happy to hear even well-meaning intervention by their caring friend. Maybe they're hearing this as criticism that makes it even harder for them to cope...  They're lying propped up in bed at noon, saying hey, you know what: "It's all I can do ...takes all I got to hold on until tomorrow" and "You were supposed to be the one I could depend on, and now you want to make it hard on me."

Personally, I'm not fussed as to whether Tom Petty is speaking autobiographically or from his imagination or drawing on a bit of both. But by any standard, this is powerful stuff as it helps develop our empathy for all people involved in this messy situation, not just to see one side. This complexity is the mark of an excellent story-teller. 

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7 hours ago, Mr Timba said:

It's hard to understand why Casa Dega was only a B side. A really great song, and better than some of the songs of DTT.

I like Casa Dega a lot. I think if it had replaced Louisiana Rain (and I'm not saying that's what would've happened) it leaves the album on more of a mysterious, questioning feeling, while Louisiana leaves it on more of an unequivocal sad moment but feels more definitive. In other words, ending DTT with Casa feels like ending it with a question, versus Louisiana as more of a sad statement.

7 hours ago, Mr Timba said:

Waiting for tonight is a great song, but to my taste that song does't fit well into "Full moon fever". (It is a FMV outtake?).

I think it should've been added to Greatest Hits and would've turned into one like Mary Jane. No, I don't think it works on FMF.

7 hours ago, Mr Timba said:

Keeping me alive is one of my favourite songs.

I think Keeping Me Alive could've ended Long After Dark, the "country" vibe an interesting contrast to the rest of the record though I forget if it was considered for Long or Hard Promises, though I'm thinking the former.

cheers

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4 hours ago, MaryJanes2ndLastDance said:

I think Keeping Me Alive could've ended Long After Dark, the "country" vibe an interesting contrast to the rest of the record though I forget if it was considered for Long or Hard Promises, though I'm thinking the former.

Yes it could have worked there.  Although I do love how it ends on "A Wasted Life".  AWL "cools off" the album after some fiery and angst-driven performances.  And it's a great song, even though it doesn't seem to really fit LAD any more than Keeping Me Alive would have done.  Then again, Louisiana Rain doesn't really fit with DTT, yet it works anyway.  

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5 hours ago, MaryJanes2ndLastDance said:

I like Casa Dega a lot. I think if it had replaced Louisiana Rain (and I'm not saying that's what would've happened) it leaves the album on more of a mysterious, questioning feeling, while Louisiana leaves it on more of an unequivocal sad moment but feels more definitive. In other words, ending DTT with Casa feels like ending it with a question, versus Louisiana as more of a sad statement.

Casa Dega ending DTT would have been great, though I also love the song Louisiana Rain and LR would have to be on an album somewhere - possibly Southern Accents.  In a way though it's better on DTT because it contrasts with the other songs.  I almost feel like DTT is two albums, everything up to Louisiana Rain, and then that final country-ish song.  Though LR doesn't seem sad to me, it seems to me more like a rebirth type of song, like the guy is reflecting back but moving ahead.  Interesting interpretation though. 

I'm enough of a Tom Petty idiot that I purchased a few old fan magazines on eBay about 20 years ago (when eBay was still kind of new), which had Petty on the cover and a story about Tom and the band inside.  One of them, I don't recall which one (but I'm guessing it's on Aimee and Liberty's website), was an interview about the upcoming album that became Damn The Torpedoes (I don't recall if they'd settled on that name yet).  And for all the great songs that wound up on DTT, the one they talked about in that interview was "Casa Dega", like they knew it would be on the album for sure.  Except it wasn't, when the album was actually issued.  This may have also been the same interview where TP said he liked the first album by "The Cars", when asked about new music he'd heard and liked.   

  

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9 minutes ago, TheSameOldDrew said:

Casa Dega ending DTT would have been great, though I also love the song Louisiana Rain and LR would have to be on an album somewhere - possibly Southern Accents.  In a way though it's better on DTT because it contrasts with the other songs.  I almost feel like DTT is two albums, everything up to Louisiana Rain, and then that final country-ish song.  Though LR doesn't seem sad to me, it seems to me more like a rebirth type of song, like the guy is reflecting back but moving ahead.  Interesting interpretation though. 

I'm enough of a Tom Petty idiot that I purchased a few old fan magazines on eBay about 20 years ago (when eBay was still kind of new), which had Petty on the cover and a story about Tom and the band inside.  One of them, I don't recall which one (but I'm guessing it's on Aimee and Liberty's website), was an interview about the upcoming album that became Damn The Torpedoes (I don't recall if they'd settled on that name yet).  And for all the great songs that wound up on DTT, the one they talked about in that interview was "Casa Dega", like they knew it would be on the album for sure.  Except it wasn't, when the album was actually issued.  This may have also been the same interview where TP said he liked the first album by "The Cars", when asked about new music he'd heard and liked.   

  

You and MJLD bandy about "countryish" like you two know what that word means. I don't think it means what you think it means.

"Keeping Me Alive" is not a country-rock song, nor has any influences from it. Bongos and a rhythm and lead 12 string guitar are far from the sound of that genre. It's folk-rock. And I always found "Don't Fade On Me" to be a clunker but you could easily of added this song, "Lonesome Dave", "Somewhere Under Heaven", "Girl on LSD", and "Leave Virginia Alone" and made Wildflowers a 20 song, double LP. If we knew it'd take almost a decade for the outtakes to come out, the band's A & R guy should've just green lit the double LP anyway and save us the hassle.

"Louisiana Rain" is a country-rock song and fits DTT perfectly. Everything about that album is perfect. The sound, the engineering, the track listing: everything. As much as I love Casa Dega", you can't just slam the song into the LP, blame the Beatles and Beach Boys for inventing an overall, cohesive sound and flow to an LP. The only place it could possibly follow is if it follows "Refugee", and the "Here Comes My Girl" gets bumped to the 4th track spot and leave "Even the Losers" at 3rd. "Casa Dega" would be a terrible album closer. It's the perfect follow up to your lead off track. Also, "Louisiana Rain" is the only track to end on DTT, and not end on a fade out. "Casa Dega" isn't a song that lends itself to ending on a hard note. 

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13 minutes ago, martin03345 said:

"Keeping Me Alive" is not a country-rock song, nor has any influences from it.

I agree and I wouldn't call it a country-rock song.  But it is very folk-influenced, remember that TP and the band had the Everly Brothers in mind.  And since folk music is a major part of country music, that's probably where MJ2LD is thinking country-ish. 

 

15 minutes ago, martin03345 said:

"Louisiana Rain" is a country-rock song and fits DTT perfectly

It ends the album very well, partly because we are used to how it ends DTT.  But I also think it kind of "cools off" the album much as "A Wasted Life" does at the end of LAD.  To my thinking, there is no other place for those songs - on those particular albums - other than at the end.  In a similar vein, "Jammin' Me" does not really fit with the LMU album stylistically, yet it still makes an energetic opening track for "some" album (i.e. it wouldn't have to be LMU).  But after hearing the LMU album many times, it does feel more like it fits than the first few times I heard it.    

Also with Louisiana Rain, the song benefits from a non-musical interlude between "What Are You Doing In My Life" and LR.  To me that break is important, rather than going straight from WAYDIML to LR - which would have been a bit more jarring given the contrasting styles.   The interlude is somewhat similar in effect to the "Hello CD listeners" part of FMF, a deliberate dividing point.  Or maybe it just worked out that way, but it seems planned.      

Speaking of The Beatles, their album that seems least cohesive to me - other than the "White Album" - is Revolver.  I think most of the songs on Revolver are great, and even the weirdest ones like "Tomorrow Never Knows" have become classics in a sense.  But stylistically that album is all over the place, and the track order seems more like a random jumble to me than a well-planned concept.  Well maybe not quite a random jumble, because the two weirdest Lennon songs are each the ending songs of the two sides of the LP.  Those probably would not have worked as the opening track of either side.  At this point however, fans are used to the track order of Revolver and many probably think of it as a masterpiece of planning.     

 

     

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3 hours ago, martin03345 said:

"Louisiana Rain" is a country-rock song and fits DTT perfectly. Everything about that album is perfect. The sound, the engineering, the track listing: everything. As much as I love Casa Dega", you can't just slam the song into the LP, blame the Beatles and Beach Boys for inventing an overall, cohesive sound and flow to an LP. The only place it could possibly follow is if it follows "Refugee", and the "Here Comes My Girl" gets bumped to the 4th track spot and leave "Even the Losers" at 3rd. "Casa Dega" would be a terrible album closer. It's the perfect follow up to your lead off track. Also, "Louisiana Rain" is the only track to end on DTT, and not end on a fade out. "Casa Dega" isn't a song that lends itself to ending on a hard note. 

Exactly. So true. 

3 hours ago, TheSameOldDrew said:

I'm enough of a Tom Petty idiot that I purchased a few old fan magazines on eBay about 20 years ago (when eBay was still kind of new), which had Petty on the cover and a story about Tom and the band inside.  One of them, I don't recall which one (but I'm guessing it's on Aimee and Liberty's website), was an interview about the upcoming album that became Damn The Torpedoes (I don't recall if they'd settled on that name yet).  And for all the great songs that wound up on DTT, the one they talked about in that interview was "Casa Dega", like they knew it would be on the album for sure.  Except it wasn't, when the album was actually issued.  This may have also been the same interview where TP said he liked the first album by "The Cars", when asked about new music he'd heard and liked.   

A little search through Petty Archives & look what appears! Interview in Record Review August 1979 - Damn The Torpedoes released October 1979. 

Did you write more than you're going to use?
Yeah, I think we wrote about 20 songs.

And you'll use 10?
So far we're using 10, but we've only mixed one, so I don't know yet, but we've got 10 favorites that we'll mix first. If we can fit more on without hurting the balance we will; if you go over 18 minutes a side, the sound starts to go bad. 

Were the songs written for this new 24-track song, or are they just Tom Petty songs?
They're just my songs; I'd write the songs same as I always have, get the band in the room and work them out. One big difference was that we used a big room to record in; we've always used little rooms in the past. We used a big room to cut the tracks, to get live echo, real echo, and we could play louder, more like we do live. All we did was play almost two dozen songs until we had the feel and the arrangements the way we wanted. I'm real happy with the tracks; they feel right.

Had you written any songs before you went in the studio to cut the tracks?
We had six, three that I had written with Michael [Campbell, guitarist], and three I wrote myself, that were done before we went in.

So Mike is still contributing a lot?
Yeah, I know that three of the songs that we wrote together are going to be on the album, and we wrote a few more together too. I wrote a lot on my own too.

The last time we talked, you mentioned getting a unity amongst the tracks, where there is strength both seperately and as an album. Has that aspect developed yet for this album?
Well I've been real conscious about this album 'cause I want it to be an album. I trust that the unity is all right; there are a lot of different songs here. Song for song, they're very different, in style and intensity.

Where are the songs coming from lyrically?
Well, all over the place.

A lot of love songs?
No shortage of love songs this time, though some of them aren't love songs. There's one called "Louisiana Rain" which isn't a love song, and a song called "Casa Dega" which isn't either.

You played that song live didn't you?
Yeah, we played a couple new songs during our Christmas tour of the West coast.

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9 hours ago, martin03345 said:

The only place it could possibly follow is if it follows "Refugee", and the "Here Comes My Girl" gets bumped to the 4th track spot and leave "Even the Losers" at 3rd. "Casa Dega" would be a terrible album closer. It's the perfect follow up to your lead off track. Also, "Louisiana Rain" is the only track to end on DTT, and not end on a fade out. "Casa Dega" isn't a song that lends itself to ending on a hard note. 

Good stuff! Very interesting points, very valid!

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I realize I'm not a moderator but this thread seems to be going sideways from discussion of Wildflowers to something almost like An American Treasure or a greatest hits discussion, or, or, or or... ;)   Should we consider someone splitting the side talk (as its an interesting discussion) into a separate thread?   Perhaps the thread could be B-sides and alternate takes and tracks and where they should have landed or 'A bunch of songs and some other stuff...'  god how I wish they would release a Bunch of videos an some other stuff on DVD...  and yes I know its on YouTube...  now get off of my lawn or I'll call the cops! 

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1 hour ago, Hoodoo Man said:

Should we consider someone splitting the side talk (as its an interesting discussion) into a separate thread?

If this keeps going I'll just retitle the thread to cover a wider amount of topics; at this point I feel discussion can continue as it has in here instead of starting a new post.

cheers

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1 hour ago, MaryJanes2ndLastDance said:

If this keeps going I'll just retitle the thread to cover a wider amount of topics

You could retitle it "Wildflowers (the album) and a bunch of other stuff".   And I'm pretty sure they won't release "A Bunch of Videos and Other Stuff" on DVD, but that was funny for the "other stuff".   Now that's a mix!   

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