The Rebel flag

[nicolasjz 0]

Hello everybody,

This is my first post here so let me first present myself. I am a French student and have been a TPATH fan for about a year now. I was incredibly lucky to see them in Paris in June.

Believe it or not, I've only come across the music video for "Rebels" a few days ago and I must say I was very disturbed to see the Rebel flag in the background and Tom wrapping himself in one at the end. I found that incredibly surprising and disturbing. Regardless of what you think about the meaning of the flag, there is no denying that for millions of people (and not just Americans), the flag is a symbol of racism and bigotry.

I'm sure Tom's not racist and I guess he incorporated the flag as part of the whole Southern Pride theme of the Southern Accents era but I really expected him to be more sensitive and cautious. Rock and Roll already has a "white music" image in the South - there is no need to put fuel on the fire by putting a Confederate flag like Lynyrd Skynyrd did.

I'd like to know what you guys thought about the issue, whether you were surprised by the presence of the flag, what you think Tom meant, etc. I'd be especially interested in knowing if Tom had ever commented on the small controversy.

Have a great day !

[SG 37]

Hello,

Listen - Tom is a Southerner like me (he is from Florida, I am from Georgia) and we are close in age. The Rebel flag is not necessarily a racist symbol to us. It is a symbol of a conflict that took place many years ago, that had numerous issues that led to the fighting, and perhaps Tom (or Mike or Ben or Ron) had kin like me who fought for the Confederate army. A way of life was being defended; please understand that most Southerners in that era did not own slaves but actually many, like my ancestors, were hard-working farmers or working folk who lived simple, quiet lives. Those lives were what they fought to defend.

Outsiders tend to think the Civil War was just about slavery but it is much more complex than that. Perhaps you can read some historical accounts of the full reasons war broke out, and oppression and devastation that the North bestowed on the South after the war was over. That will give you a more balanced understanding of the Confederate flag and its meaning.

[Marion 1,411]

That was the Southern Accents tour. If you can find a documentary called Southern Accents I believe Tom did make a small mention of the flag in there somewhere but I can't remember what he said. I'm pretty sure he took a lot of grief for using it during that tour.

[nicolasjz 0]

Hello,

Listen - Tom is a Southerner like me (he is from Florida, I am from Georgia) and we are close in age. The Rebel flag is not necessarily a racist symbol to us. It is a symbol of a conflict that took place many years ago, that had numerous issues that led to the fighting, and perhaps Tom (or Mike or Ben or Ron) had kin like me who fought for the Confederate army. A way of life was being defended; please understand that most Southerners in that era did not own slaves but actually many, like my ancestors, were hard-working farmers or working folk who lived simple, quiet lives. Those lives were what they fought to defend.

Outsiders tend to think the Civil War was just about slavery but it is much more complex than that. Perhaps you can read some historical accounts of the full reasons war broke out, and oppression and devastation that the North bestowed on the South after the war was over. That will give you a more balanced understanding of the Confederate flag and its meaning.

I understand your point and appreciate your interesting insights. However, there is no denying that for millions of people, the flag is a symbol of racism and/or slavery and can you really blame them? I mean, the KKK, the White Citizens Council and dozens of racist organisations have used the flag and made it their own. Even in France, neo-nazi undeground groups use it - that's why so many Europeans are familiar with it. So while to you and many other Southerners (perhaps TPATH themselves) it is a positive symbol, you can't really blame others for being disturbed by it. And that's why I was a bit disappointed Tom did that. His music is supposed to bring people together and to be devoid of any divisive politics, so the incorporation of such a controversial item was, to me, a serious lapse in judgement.

Apparently quite a few civil rights organisations took aim at Tom and I heard that MTV had even banned the video because of that. So what is really worth it?

[nurktwin 2,143]

^ it's very simple, you believe in what you want, and let it go at that. We all believe in something and that's it. It may be right or wrong, but who has the final say-so? Certainly not me or you.

[Magnolia 171]

Listen - Tom is a Southerner like me (he is from Florida, I am from Georgia) and we are close in age. The Rebel flag is not necessarily a racist symbol to us. It is a symbol of a conflict that took place many years ago, that had numerous issues that led to the fighting, and perhaps Tom (or Mike or Ben or Ron) had kin like me who fought for the Confederate army. A way of life was being defended; please understand that most Southerners in that era did not own slaves but actually many, like my ancestors, were hard-working farmers or working folk who lived simple, quiet lives. Those lives were what they fought to defend.

Outsiders tend to think the Civil War was just about slavery but it is much more complex than that. Perhaps you can read some historical accounts of the full reasons war broke out, and oppression and devastation that the North bestowed on the South after the war was over. That will give you a more balanced understanding of the Confederate flag and its meaning.

Very interesting, SG!

[Rick 156]

Let's face it....the question is really unanswerable. Comments on both sides of the controversy are very valid. But I think that unless you're a Southerner or black, you can't really understand what the flag means to them. I'm a white Northerner, and I can see both sides.

One thing I do know about that flag is that it did NOT come to represent slavery, bigotry and oppression until nearly 100 years after it was created. It represented the very special cultural heritage of the South, and independence from domination by the North. It represented rebellion. It wasn't until the Civil Rights movement that people identified it as a source of racism. And then racists started identifying with the flag, which didn't help matters.

I was not surprised by the sight of the flag at TPATH concerts. In fact, I thought that, in context, it was endearing. I love the "Southern Accents" album because it says something very special about the way of life in the South. I think Tom was doing nothing more that showing affection for the South.

Of course, you're right that the sight is disturbing to many. I seem to remember reading that on a later tour, someone threw a rebel flag on the stage and Tom commented that they used to fly the flag, but rethought it after he realized that it didn't have the same "rebel" symbolism for many that it had for him, and that he wouldn't be displaying it anymore.

I understand that the flag means many things to many people. I refuse to judge Tom, any Southerner, or any of the folks offended by the flag, as I don't walk in their shoes.

But listen to the lyrics....Tom's telling us what it means to him:

There's a Southern accent, where I come from

The young'uns call it country, the Yankees call it dumb

I got my own way of talkin' but everything is done

With a Southern accent where I come from...

[SingsInFrench 262]

Interesting discussion. I've thought about this subject, myself, and was torn about my feelings on the issue. I can see both sides, and I understand that Tom has pride in, and affection for, the South.

It's so nice to read a straight-forward, polite discussion of an emotional subject. It's why I love the Farm!

[Jay 97]

I have seen Tom tell the audience "please dont wave confederate flags thinking that we dig it because we dont" I think its on the pack up the plantation video.

[Amber 70]

I also grew up in N FL and South GA. The confederate flag flew over every state building, school etc when I was growing up (and Tom too). It meant that we southerners are rebels and will not be told what to do by anyone. As Rick says, it wasn't considered a symbol of racism until I was in college. The GA flag had the confederate flag as a part of it since forever and was removed in the 90s because of controversy. When Southern Accents was recorded and the concert tour occurred, it was not an issue. That was then, this is now. You would not see Tom and the guys waving a confederate flag now, because it is viewed by many people as racist. You have to take it in the context of the times. Tom is not a racist and neither am I. I wore a jacket in the early 70s that had a rebel flag (as we called it) sewn on it. No one called me a racist then, nor do they call me one now.

[Liberty 191]

I am not from the south, but I have a rebel flag hanging in my room.

To me, it doesn't have anything to do with races.

The south has a rich history that isn't just about slavery.

If you think about it, the black and indians who were enslaved, had the south won, never would have stayed slaves. Technology in the farming industry boomed just after the civil war, and it never would have been practical to keep the slaves. A lot of slaves were treated badly, but after the civil war, a lot of slaves stayed with their owners, many were educated, and had affairs/children with white men and women.

Black and indian children were sold to families and plantation owners and raised as their own to be a helping hand.

I do not believe in racism or slavery, but there is something about the south that I just love.

Tom Petty doesn't send a message of slavery or racism when he waves the rebel flag. (Obviously, his drummer is black! And not even American... LOL!)

Tom Petty is flying his flag, at my best judgment, for heritage.

Just because the south lost the civil war, doesn't mean they were the bad guys. Both sides had their problems--heck, to the best of my knowledge, the "union" was headed towards Utah to exterminate/eradicate the Mormons.

The last thing I would call Tom Petty would be a racist. Black people are a large part of the south. (Statistically, that's the most densely populated area of black people, the confederate states). I couldn't imagine loving the blues as much as the Heartbreakers and taking criticism for having a rebel flag... it's just common sense really. Many black people in the south even have rebel flags.

Like I said, it's more heritage than racism.

However... if you are in a state that was NOT a part of the confederacy (IE, Ohio) and some redneck has a rebel flag, from my experience being an Ohioan, they ARE 89% going to not be too particularly fond of black people! LOL!

There's nothing wrong with being patriotic in America. We have a rich history. Everyone is apart of something larger than themselves. I understand why Tom Petty would have a rebel flag. I have a confederate flag, an American flag, and a British flag. It's just all about heritage I think, for people like Tom Petty and myself.

It's a good topic to consider, I think.

Also, I would say, I don't think rock and roll has a white image in the south (well, not when TP was growing up, but now, I suppose).

Bo Diddley was a major player in early rock and roll, and from Gainesville, no less.

In any case,

Welcome to the Farm!

I think you can really hear the heritage in songs like "Down South" and "Southern Accents."

Talking about bugs and Spanish moss in Down South just puts me in central Florida. Love it!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NmpNPpze38]Down South - Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers - YouTube[/ame]

Edited January 26, 2013 by tompetty1976

[Liberty 191]

That was the Southern Accents tour. If you can find a documentary called Southern Accents I believe Tom did make a small mention of the flag in there somewhere but I can't remember what he said. I'm pretty sure he took a lot of grief for using it during that tour.

As I haven't watched it in a few months, I cannot say if he mentions it or not, but it's worth sitting through.

I just love this documentary. I love how it really captures the south. There are plenty of blacks, plenty of southern accents, and plenty of rebel flags.

This is probably my favorite documentary (Other than Runnin' Down a Dream, of course).

The video is available to watch here:

http://vimeo.com/2469760

[TwoGunslingers 146]

Now this is a really interesting thread! Thanks for bringing it up! And welcome to the Farm!

To me, as someone whose country (Germany) is only slowly coming to terms with its own flag and what it entails, it's always been a bit hard to understand how you can be patriotic at all. LOL

But, of course, what I do understand is that in our neighboring countries in Europe as well as in the U.S. the whole story is completely different. And that it has always to be seen in context. I cannot imagine that Petty would have used the flag had it been a symbol of racism in the mid-eighties. Simple as that. He must be sensitive to the issue, since many of his favorite musicians are/were black. And Rock'n'Roll, as far as I know, has always been seen as "black music" by artists of Pettys generation (Springsteen comes to mind). Or, maybe even more significantly, as neither exclusively black nor exclusively white.

I guess that in Europe (unless you're an historian) the Civil War is somewhat reduced to the issue of slavery. Which, of course, was an important aspect (I'm far from being a racist!), but like others already said here, not the only one, and politically not even the most important one. And I think it's this incomplete picture that we have of the Civil War (and the South, for that matter) that makes it so hard for us Europeans to see what the flag really means to Southerners.

[TwoGunslingers 146]

So, thanks to all the guys from the South who shared their feelings and toughts about this! Important! I forgot to say.

[Liberty 191]

Thank you for bringing in your flag!^

So many people think that Germany was BAD but it wasn't the Germans, it was the Nazi's. The German people are just as good as everyone else, but the fact is they were so oppressed and given no other option really than to stand with Hitler.

It is really sad. My grandfather was in the American Army in Germany in 46, I think. He went into a pub with a hamsteak and asked the barmaid to cook it for him, by the time she figured out that he wanted to share it with everyone there, she was crying and the other men were thanking him because they hadn't seen actual meat in so long.

Another time, he helped an old woman tend garden. Neither of them understood each other, except for when he figured out she wanted one of his cigarettes. She couldn't have been more pleased.

It bothers me for people to think that the Jews were the only people truly hurt by the Nazi's but the oppression was so bad many Germans who weren't Jewish were treated the same way and sent to concentration camps for disobeying.

There's nothing wrong with flying the German flag and being a patriotic German! (It's the Swastika you have to worry about, haha!) My grandpa also says that it was the most beautiful country he has ever been to, and he's been around!

[TwoGunslingers 146]

Well, thank you! Isn't that something! My grandparents have always spoken very fondly of the Americans they met that came here to help liberate (that's how it was called, and it's probably the most accurate term) the country. According to them, they must have been really kind to the Germans. Which is supported by the story of your grandfather. My grandpa was in a camp for prisoners of war in Nürnberg and liked the captain there a lot who, on Christmas, let the prisoners visit friends or relatives. Which some took advantage of and never came back to the camp; my grandpa did, though.

And my parents told me how they got their first chewing gum from American soldiers. When their military vehicles rolled through our hometown, little kids (e.g. my parents) ran alongside and begged for gum, which they got.

Today, Germany as a country really isn't bad. Thanks to how it all worked out with England, France and the U.S.A. and the European Union and all that. But, getting back to topic , what appeals to me in context with the rebel flag is this spirit... not letting anyone tell you how to live. It's something that shows in Petty's carreer, if you think of the lawsuit against MCA, and also in the carreers of other artists that are not from the South. But maybe it's a bit of a Southern thing. If that's one of the reasons (among with heritage) why he used the flag on the Southern Accents tour, it's understandable. And fitting.

[Mikeyt 136]

Welcome aboard nicolasjz. I've been here all of one day and here's my perspective from the UK. There are no racist connotations with the confederate flag as far as I'm concerned. As SG points out, the war was about a lot more than slavery. My daughter could well wear a tee-shirt with that flag featured. She is a bit of a rebel. Well, after her homework has been completed she can be ;-)

That's what it stands for: sticking it to the man!

[Liberty 191]

Well, thank you! Isn't that something! My grandparents have always spoken very fondly of the Americans they met that came here to help liberate (that's how it was called, and it's probably the most accurate term) the country. According to them, they must have been really kind to the Germans. Which is supported by the story of your grandfather. My grandpa was in a camp for prisoners of war in Nürnberg and liked the captain there a lot who, on Christmas, let the prisoners visit friends or relatives. Which some took advantage of and never came back to the camp; my grandpa did, though.

And my parents told me how they got their first chewing gum from American soldiers. When their military vehicles rolled through our hometown, little kids (e.g. my parents) ran alongside and begged for gum, which they got.

Today, Germany as a country really isn't bad. Thanks to how it all worked out with England, France and the U.S.A. and the European Union and all that. But, getting back to topic , what appeals to me in context with the rebel flag is this spirit... not letting anyone tell you how to live. It's something that shows in Petty's carreer, if you think of the lawsuit against MCA, and also in the carreers of other artists that are not from the South. But maybe it's a bit of a Southern thing. If that's one of the reasons (among with heritage) why he used the flag on the Southern Accents tour, it's understandable. And fitting.

Thanks for your story! I love hearing things like this.