Big Blue Sky

This is whale shark & as you'll know it eats lots of things, just not fish. Sending my best good wishes to ya both.

As far as I'm concerned there is nothing to discuss. I was afraid that aspect would be what people took from all of my post. It has been discussed thourougly and endlessly many years ago and I for one is done with it. What's the point in variation. Right. Conclusion, or even a minimum shared definition of what is to be discussed was never to be reached. Moving on.
So I'm sorry that was where the bate of my post ended up. I had no intention to start an old moot set list discussion, just to explain that given how Tom thought of these things in terms of an arch, I find this here '99 show to be a prime example of successful execution. I thought I mentioned, and tried my best to explain that what I was after. The fact that creating a set list (or sequencing and LP) is a difficult art that goes beyond simply tempo and/or song familiarity and preference. And to do that I ventured to provide some context, as a by product, side note, about my view on how good Tom was with these things, but how little he usually used the insights, but how great the result when he did.
I am sorry if that again put the whole discussion back to the old "should they have mixed it up every day" or "should they have played Luna" or "don't you understand that stage lights have to be programmed a decade at the time" kind of discussions. None of which was never my sentiments, or point. Not back in the day, when set lists were an alive topic here, and not now when I, in a response to MJ2LD simply tried to explain why and how I think it's more to the art of creating set lists than he and people in general think. (Since MJ2LD thinks I like this particular Filmore '99 run simply because I like the songs, which... then...  is just part of it and not even entirely true. )
Oh, well. Fear not. This's what may be called the Curse of Shelter. No matter what I say to the contrary - no, please don't drop the map, please don't pull songs from a hat, please don't change everything daily - or how much I try to discuss various theoretical aspects - like now when I really try to stress how serious and overlooked the structure itself is - I still am the one who supposedly don't understand or who just wants to get rid of the hits or whatever opinions people have put on me over the years.
Either way, this time I basically just meant to say that sequencing is a hard, difficult and at best very beautiful task. Very important. And that Tom apparently agreed, that he was really good at it and perhaps should have explored it's possibilities some more. It was meant as positive, if with a context provided and some critisism. I did not meant to bore or offend, no no no no no. Thank you. I keep trying.
And yes, they should have played Luna more often. (Just look at the "Rock Goes To College" from 1980 and awe.)

Yes all of those are factors, I was peeling back to the bone really which is tempo. It's possible to have a somber song with a fast tempo but generally speaking, if you're trying to move an audience with tender or somber or outright depressing lyrics and feeling, one usually goes for a slower tempo; would Southern Accents have worked as a Lonesome Dave? Maybe sure but it would be a different song with a different feel. 
While all those points you listed make sense, need to be considered etc. I was going for what lay underneath it all which to me, is tempo. 
Look at the Tom Petty Arch (®)Shelter.
Very scientific and carefully considered Breakdown:
Lead out the gate with something fast, transiition to something mid tempo, bring it back up with Won't Back Down, drop down to Free Fallin', maybe some more uptempo songs culminating in a large jam song, then the acoustic interlude, gospel-Learn To Fly, then the ISHKI-Runnin'...err...run and closing out with You Wreck Me and Am Girl.
A variety of moods to carry the audience along; heck, one could look at something like You Wreck Me as the microcosm of the set list itself, starts fast, gets a mellowish breakdown in the middle, then surges upward for a big finish.
It's a journey he takes the listeners on and while song key, mood, vibe all factor into it, the mechanics underneath such as it were, the gears are the tempo. And while he may not have made the set simply based on rhythm, in fact, he most likely, to make a guess, factored in all of what you noted above, but underneath it all, there's basically three variations of songs or song types, my whole "fast/slow midtempo statement." Which was I think at the moment I wrote it, less about the construction of the set and more the base limitations or format with rock-n-roll. 
I don't really think it's limiting though, but more of a fun challenge. Luna and Breakdown are slower tempo songs but each one does something different, moves the listener in a different way and so on. And that's where as you said, key change, mood, vibe come into play.
I agree, heck it's probably why so many of my posts touch on the subject in one form or another...! It is interesting, because unlike an album which is set for the ages such as it is, a set list has potential to be something more, not just a fun night with varying moods and tempos bringing people up and down and up again but seeing what different combinations of songs can elicit different feelings and even highlight different perhaps unknown or subtler aspects of themselves; that's aside from the fun wordplay to be had as well, such as throwing You Wreck Me before U Get Me High or the never paired Kings Highway/King's Road. But there's a whole other approaches and it's possible that the artist is trying to say something unique that night with a different set.
 Yes, and that's what some of us on here rallied against, moot as it turned out to be, ha ha! 
cheers

Discuss? Ha ha, more like beat into the ground many times over. A quick search of the forum should deliver quite the bounty (if one views it that way) of many a spirited set list discussion. 
Playing a concert doesn't have to be a locked in experience, here's a list of songs and with barely any changes, they're going to play it every night over and over. With simple rock songs and by simple I mean they are not challenging to play for most skilled musicians (though the nuances may not be replicated, hence why some covers sound off) one could learn all sorts of deep cuts and pull them back onstage.
Why? If most people only go to one show? For artistic fullfillment if nothing else. There was a potential bigger money draw if TPATH had developed a live reputation like Phish or something with more people traveling to see them, or going to both nights of a show or what have you so from a $ point of view they could've made even more had that been the goal. But that's a side effect, for myself, I'd have enjoyed opening up bootleg shows and seeing a wide variety of songs and performances and styles to enjoy rather than having to scrape around in search of the one off songs they played, knowing that after Mojo the end of the show will be: ISHKI-Refugee-Runnin, etc.
I think for a musician determined not to repeat themselves from album to album, it was a shame he didn't take the same approach to the concerts. Just that Mike would call a set of shows "Free from Free Fallin'" should say it all really.
While it's selfish of me to want them to have played more deep cuts, I also think it's more of what the band would've enjoyed. There's a certain order to most things, businesses, careers, occupations where one must do things in a certain way to maximize productivity and be efficient.
But a rock concert is a chance for a wonderful liberation on stage, both in musical presentation, jammy, improv and such and what songs are played each night. That they seemed to enjoy playing residencies so much and often filled, if not with a plethora of deep cuts than at least some and covers they enjoyed playing instead of being stuffed with hits, I think shows where their sympathy lay when it came to this despite for whatever reason Tom chose to keep them to a rigid approach for their regular tours.
Red Rocks alone on the last tour shows how the energy changed on stage after the rain, with Benmont leading them into a jam/cover and Tom playing Swingin'.
cheers

The shark took a bite...!

Definitely too! Hey, just cause we've decimated the topic doesn't mean I wouldn't want to hear your take on the sets or Tom's approach or your perception of his approach, how before a tour he'd say one thing in an interview and deliver something else, etc.
Were you happy with the sets? Did you catch them live? More than once a tour? Have at it! 
If you want...

It's more I believe there's indefinable reasons, taste really that things boil down to and at that wonderful ineffable state one can't really argue, nor one should really. The songs from this ('99) show elicit a different overall mood, cumulative feeling,so it's more than just the songs themelves, well, I understand that as best as one can I suppose. I hope this in some way mitigates "the curse".
cheers

And there's a "wealth" of discussions on this as well, the most recent being Let's Make Southern Accents Great again. I love the flow of FMF and Hypnotic Eye, perfect records to my ear, so yes, there's a whole art to choosing songs to include on a record and how they're sequenced, I'm sure much the way a talented author will during the final edit, carefully consider what words to include or cut, the band (or Tom) carefully mulled over a song order for maximum impact.
Going from American Dream Plan B to Shadow People is a deliberate intent, Tom's coda the perfect ending to the record and such as it turned out to be, their recording career. A final note of hope fitting for a man who sometimes tried to champion musically at least, the weaker, the dreamers, the lost and failed.
cheers

Ok then. As long as you realize it's a lot more complex.
Let's leave it.  

Unless the point of creating set lists is to keep band & crew from being so bored by a rigid set list that people are smacking their heads against walls. 
Hmmm? 

One of the guys in the band wanted to try this one last night.  Cool song.
 

Thanks @Big Blue Sky I figured someone here had done the "due diligence" and that's exactly why I didn't want to try and be a facebook stalker (LOL) but was definitely curious enough to ask.  I remembered he mentioned the name in the Zanes book, which obviously is a memorable one due to the supermodel of the same name, but seeing it in the box set made me curious enough to want to know more.  I didn't realize she was also the inspiration for  'even the losers' which is one of my favorite songs of the bands so that's is even more amazing. Thank you very much for sharing!    

It happens. I've been known to give people three-paragraph essays in a question that could be answered with yes or no. 
I believe she was also mentioned briefly in Conversations, although I'm a bit tired to check right now.

Thanks for sharing this; usually I don't like knowing the origins of songs or details at this level but there's something touching about all this.
Yes, some may point to American Girl as the ultimate TPATH song, or Runnin' Down A Dream, the Waiting, even Mary Jane's but it could just be Even The Losers, it's catchy, it rocks, it's sentimental in such few short words, every verse is just packed with emotion, topped of with that imagery of the rock/broken glass. I think it could be the ultimate TPATH song, doing so much with such wonderful brevity. One of my favorites, top three for sure.
This forum is doing a public service; I figure I'd put people to sleep with some TPATH anecdotes, opinions, set list complaints. 
That's what makes this place so much better than twitter or facebook. I enjoy the long answers!
cheers

Plus as you'll know anyway, TP talks about her impact on him in (I think) Zane's book.  
He knew Cindy when he was school age & crushed on her big time. She was the girl who was booking bands for the school dance, right, when he falsely claimed "oh yeah, I'm in a band" & had to scramble to fulfil his fist gig! So once he graduated high school (late 1968),  he went away to Tampa / St Petefor his art school drawing course - partly to avoid the Vietnam draft & partly because he was keen on another girl. After his time of not doing any work for his course & working in that girl's dad's mortician business, he headed back to Gainesville feeling unsettled. So that would've been late 1968 / early 1969 in Tampa & mid to late 1969 back in Gville?  One Gainesville night he bumps into Cindy & she likes his longer hair. This is the night he refers to in imagery for "Even The Losers" - sitting on the roof looking at the stars and also skipping rocks across the water down by the new overpass.   He says in Zane's that he also had an acid inspired moment that night, realising that making music in a band was where he felt most right. Unfortunately for all soft-hearted romantics like me, apparently Cindy later took Tom aside & said something like  "look, Tommy, you keep trying with me, but this just isn't going to work..." He was once again emotionally crushed down (by what sounds like quite a kind rejection) but was busy musically, having rejoined The Epics / Mudcrutch. Cindy exits the main recorded story at that point, so to speak. So .... she inspired him to start playing in live gigs🐊 and write Even The Losers 🐊 and Best Of Everything🐊
 
PS this level of knowledge, soaked up over the years, is exactly why my friends don't let me start talking about TPATH, unless they actually want to discuss something in particular.  

so does anyone know anything about Cindy Crawford from Gainesville - the woman he wrote the best of everything about but never reconnected with?  Its so bittersweet to read he wanted to look her up essentially on his deathbed...  😔

I have no clue how commercially viable Mike Campbell's biography would be, but given his history as a Heartbreaker and all the other projects he has worked on with Dylan, Cash as well as Boys of Summer for Henley, now being part of the Mac not to mention an impressive charity or being the house band for a number of shows I would greedily eat up every page.  It really is a wonderful life for him despite losing Tom...   
Same goes for Benmont too.  

Science experiment gone wrong?

^ Gotta love George!
"Must have played something..."

in the second clip, what is goin' on with that guitar?  
 

I think all the instagram bathroom jams and what not are just further proof of where Mike's heart resides, aside from the Heartbreakers. No matter how much fun and enjoyment and perhaps a bit of a challenge it's been filling in with Fleetwood there's nothing like playing songs he had a hand writing in for an appreciative audience. Take a peek at the clips of the Dirty Knobs covering TPATH and despite (or because) of the emotion, Mike seems quite at home, indulging in the more bluesy-jammy side of his playing.
My opinion.
cheers

Baltimore is the murder capital of US - oh no that's terrible for them! Not exactly a municipal slogan that suits bill-boards or the side of city council trucks, is it?
Yeah, having an illustration of at least some of that musical cross-pollination is very handy, as otherwise it can be very confusing.  I'm grateful for any graphic designers who are prepared to give it a go & this one suits my style. I'll be looking out for the Clapton family tree.  
Ha! I have just finished Keith Richard's Life (a Christmas present) so will also be looking out for 20 Thousand Roads next.  Jeez, some people do go through phases where they unerringly seek out many of the worst possible options.  I guess many of us do this to some degree... I know my great-aunts were judging me hard by some of my choices (even though I thought then & still think now that those were pretty tame decisions).  Who knows, maybe if Gram'd lived a few more years he might've left his time of great confusion behind, or gained greater resilience.  On other hand, from what I've read so far, his folks were pretty solidly messed up too, so he was on thin ice even before entering the world of music. Thanks for the tip, as it's a book I've never heard of until now.  One of the nice things about sites like this, hey?
  Okay, linking back up with an earlier post - & this'll cheer anyone up even if they live in Baltimore - here's Okie From Muskogee. 
 
 

Baltimore is the murder capital of US - oh no that's terrible for them! Not exactly a municipal slogan that suits bill-boards or the side of city council trucks, is it?
Yeah, having an illustration of at least some of that musical cross-pollination is very handy, as otherwise it can be very confusing.  I'm grateful for any graphic designers who are prepared to give it a go & this one suits my style. I'll be looking out for the Clapton family tree.  
Ha! I have just finished Keith Richard's Life (a Christmas present) so will also be looking out for 20 Thousand Roads next.  Jeez, some people do go through phases where they unerringly seek out many of the worst possible options.  I guess many of us do this to some degree... I know my great-aunts were judging me hard by some of my choices (even though I thought then & still think now that those were pretty tame decisions).  Who knows, maybe if Gram'd lived a few more years he might've left his time of great confusion behind, or gained greater resilience.  On other hand, from what I've read so far, his folks were pretty solidly messed up too, so he was on thin ice even before entering the world of music. Thanks for the tip, as it's a book I've never heard of until now.  One of the nice things about sites like this, hey?
  Okay, linking back up with an earlier post - & this'll cheer anyone up even if they live in Baltimore - here's Okie From Muskogee. 
 
 

Ha! "Streets of Baltimore" is a great song!  Yes, it's the murder capital of America, but it's still a cool song!  I like that family tree.  There's a Clapton one just like it that I got years ago. Was it in the "Slowhand" album?  Can't remember.  There's a lot of cross pollination in the music world, no matter the genre.
Anyway, Gram was an interesting guy. Kind of an enigma in some ways.  Seems like he makes the wrong decision pretty consistently in his life.  Just when he's about to have some kind of breakthrough success, he finds a way to mess it up.  I'm about halfway through "Twenty Thousand Roads", if you've read that.  Complicated guy, and straight up "country", really.  The "rock" part of "country rock", not so much really.  But that's OK with me - I grew up on Buck Owens, Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, George Jones, etc.  That is exactly the "country" that Gram loved.