MaryJanes2ndLastDance
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Posts posted by MaryJanes2ndLastDance
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On August 23, 2019 at 2:20 PM, TheSameOldDrew said:Especially the last part about most things he worries about not happening
On August 23, 2019 at 11:15 AM, Hoodoo Man said:Most things I worry about
Never happen anywayI agree with both of you, that's a very good set of lines and very encouraging.
cheers
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On August 22, 2019 at 5:02 PM, Hoodoo Man said:The album cycle from Wildflowers forward was for sure to my mind an evolution and did not strike me as an attempt to lure in stoners or flirt with that crowd.
I agree with you. I think it was just part of his evolution, which served him well, those creative instincts. WF and going forward, reforming Mudcrutch, all were great decisions!
Perhaps any GD crowd was just a mix of maybe some fans looking for a replacement and/or just grooving along to WF. I respect that he adhered to his creativity even when I didn't like the results. Some bright spots but for me, that stretch from WF through to Mudcrutch and most of Mojo was pretty gray.
cheers
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On August 23, 2019 at 2:11 PM, TheSameOldDrew said:though still quite a lot that have never been performed live.
You Tell Me, The Criminal Kind and Same Old You...as far as I know never played, same with Finding Out (save for a French (?) tv show or studio broadcast) and You And I Will Meet Again. Picture a residency (or main tour) with those songs mixed in with the usual hits. But...ahh....I'll stop, no point to it.
cheers
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19 hours ago, TheSameOldDrew said:The first bootleg I owned was the one disc 1989 North Carolina show, supposedly made possible by the European copyright laws of the early 1990's. And that's still my favorite live TPATH performance.
I regretted not purchasing the '89 bootleg at a record convention and waited a whole year to go again and make sure to pick it up. They did a good job of condensing the concert to a single disc, you get some hits, a cover (or two for those who enjoy such) the new Full Moon Fever tunes, some fine jamming, an acoustic segment and a powerful double ending with Refugee and Runnin'.
All with good sound quality and fun performances. Who doesn't enjoy the heavy intro to DCAHNM? Or the fun of Benmont's solo?
And like I've said before, I don't think they ever took Runnin' as far as they could live, that outro past playing the solo on disc (which I think is Mike's best) could've been a shred-fest of guitar heroics for a good three minutes. But the version on this bootleg is my favorite take they did on the tune.
cheers
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On August 22, 2019 at 1:06 PM, TheSameOldDrew said:My enjoyment was simply greatly curtailed at the point of WF-Echo and never fully returned, so that's my take essentially on the WF album.
WF was a huge disappointment following FMF and ITGWO. Just "devastating" really. Playback was quite good and She's The One was an uptick from WF though and I still think it's one of their better records, less listened to because of its stigma as a movie soundtrack. The Echo/Last Dj was a double bitter pill, though the latter at least had some energy to it and the former had a few tracks here and there. For me, Mudcrutch was the beginning of something better, with some of Mojo and all of Hypnotic Eye and Mudcrutch 2 as largely good too.
cheers
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2 hours ago, TheSameOldDrew said:Stan playing drums on "Crawling Back To You" at the Viper Room. I wonder - I'm sure we all wonder - how much of that concert was filmed and how much of the WF album they played. It's possible that there's not much more they filmed than what we see in the documentary. But if there's more, it would be great to see it.
I think a soundboard release of that entire show would be something as there's probably the long version of Mary Jane's, and Wildflowers songs with Stan and who knows what else as very little infor of this concert has ever leaked out.
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13 hours ago, Shelter said:Tom was at the point in his artistic and creative development, after his experience with Jeff Lynne, where he really wasn't that interested in the rhythm section as an equal organic living part of the music anymore, but rather turned towards more of a "back-drop" approach, the drums merely a canvas of sorts upon which the rest of the band could "paint" the song. If that analogy make any sense. In a way, the total of the decisions made in those years post the first solo album and TW project, may be defined as the "death" of the Heartbreakers, since much of the "band" vibe took a hit from the shift in drum and recording/arrangement approach (not quite resdiscovered until the Mudcrutch into Mojo experience*)
I think this hits it dead center.
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On August 22, 2019 at 5:02 PM, Hoodoo Man said:I'm not a stoner but I love to this day when Tom does a story like in Gloria or Spike with his patter and working with the crowd...
Ha ha, the patter was my least favorite part of when they did things like this. While I did like "Jack" in Breakdown, I'd prefer to just let the instruments do the talkin'. As for Gloria and Spike, the same though I also don't really care for the music in Gloria as well so it's just something I skip on live recordings.
On August 22, 2019 at 5:02 PM, Hoodoo Man said:One of my favorite versions of Mary Jane's Last Dance is from the 1/12/97 Fillmore show where there is an extended jam guitar riff about 4 min into the song with a lot of distortion.
Now we're talkin'! More than two men talking here and that is a great version of the tune. Next listen I'll check out the riff you mention. I think the live versions from 93, 95, and 97 and 02 or 03? were the best takes on the song. I thought maybe they'd bring that type of thing back on their last tour but I guess not.
cheers
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7 hours ago, TheSameOldDrew said:A lot of this also depends on what is truly "jamming" and what is essentially a scripted extension of the studio version of a song.
I throw jamming and improvisation around, even the term "extending songs" willy-nilly, stretching them (har har) perhaps far beyond their definitions.
I think you did a good job of delineating them.
For me, I prefer when a band is as spontaneous and in the moment as possible when it comes to those moments, I understand having a pre-planed spot in a song where they can open it up as it were like in the middle or letting the ending go on and within that time period be it short or long, let the band do whatever they want, take chances and such.
But in lieu of that I'll still gladly take a planned or rehearsed bit when they extend the song, like in Refugee or Too Good To Be True etc.
7 hours ago, TheSameOldDrew said:Mike and Benmont in particular did a lot of improvisation to great effect, not quite playing the song the same way from night to night, though the overall length of the song stayed roughly the same.
I like that as well, but I think their best moments on stage as a band were when Mike and Benmont had free reign over what they wanted to do, Melinda and Two Men Talking were highlights of that for me in addition to Mike and his surfing instrumental spots or Benmont's Boogie etc.
7 hours ago, TheSameOldDrew said:As something of a side note, Howie did some interesting improvisation when they started playing "Louis Louis" at the 1982 Utrecht show. But TP stopped the song after a few seconds,
I think that was the first bootleg I owned, pricey but worth it at the time, such good sound quality though I think the last song faded out. The second was the very popular single disc from the 89 or 91 tour from South Carolina?
To my ears, best live version of Runnin' Down A Dream where Mike threw in some neat harmonics or bends or such at the end that I'd not heard him do since. And the excellent acoustic version of Even The Losers. Good thing now with the internet all this stuff is generously shared and one no longer regrets spending $50 on a double live album that sounds like it was recorded from under the seats.
Time to refill my non Maxwell House coffee.
7 hours ago, TheSameOldDrew said:In fact, who wants to hear the songs played exactly as on the albums?
That's been my feeling when I first listened to rock-n-roll. Over the years, both with people who play instruments and fans of bands I've found a mix of people who are frustrated or annoyed when a band goes off-script as it were or doesn't play the song the same way on stage as on record.
7 hours ago, TheSameOldDrew said:One more thing regarding "jamming". IIf it had been up to me, I'd have preferred that TPATH in the 21st century to have varied the setlist more from tour to tour, played fewer cover songs, and shortened some of the jams - in order to give more room to more songs.
Yeah, I hear ya! They had quite a number of deep cuts never played. Moot now. I guess it's always fun when one emerges from a fan recording or soundboard, or whatnot. My feeling is if the band took to the stage with an appreciative audience in a small bar and played anything they wanted without worrying about losing the crowd they'd have been largely a blues-cover groove band, with maybe a few rockers here and there. Again, who knows?
cheers
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3 hours ago, Shelter said:Eh.. yeah.. easy on the extended link jams, man.. Not that I don't like a good link to keep me jittery all night myself, but somehow I miss the old days when you where not into the heavy link stuff as much, when you kept it simple and rolled just on ramblings.. an occasional set fix perhaps just to be able to sleep..
Hoodoo Man reacted to this -
On August 20, 2019 at 4:18 PM, TheSameOldDrew said:Even a song like "Learning to Fly" took on new meaning for that crowd, I recall a concert where people cheered at the "and the town lit up" line, which to my understanding wasn't about pot, but many in the new crowd (i.e. after 1992) took it that way.
Ha ha, I never thought of it that way! I figured it was literal lights, or that perspective of being above a town and seeing the light from a bird's perspective, that sort of thing, a beautiful moment and image with accompanying feeling...! I guess I could see how people took that as another pot reference!
ciao
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On August 20, 2019 at 4:18 PM, TheSameOldDrew said:(while others like myself exited the scene, as I no longer attended live shows after the 1990's, even turning down free tickets two different times after 2000).
Wow, I missed this! I guess it answers my question regarding the live jams and such; though...it brings up a new question which is, have you listened to live shows from later tours? Or was that it for live TPATH for you...?
cheers
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7 hours ago, Shelter said:The FMF album and songs still being punch:y and short enough (which seem to be one of your key definitions), but still a definate diversion from the band based rock efforts that we were used to from TPATH up to that point. A reorientation it seemed, but not towards "stoner rock", certainly, but rather to a California defined vibe of acoustic guitars, boardwalks, converse and skateboards. Very light, breezy and hip, all in all..........Still not by any definition a psychedelic, jam heavy, mellow spaced out folk rock or blues effort, or even a clear coming to age, turning introvert effort either.
I agree, definitely a bit removed from the more singer-songwriter type songs or introspective, what have you of the Steve years.
Aside from the acoustic prominence (to a degree I guess) I think FMF has more in common with early TP than later. The album is a textbook rock-n-roll/pop album, from the way the sides are arranged, the songs, so many neat riffs and melodies...the bees knees! As for ITGWO it seemed like the tale is the old band resisting and losing (?) to Lynne's approach but it still feels more of a kind with the first half, or the Stan years than what was to come.
7 hours ago, Shelter said:Enters Mary Jane. With Stan already one foot out the door. (Mary Jane.. yeah.. another clue to what a groovy trip of an album WF was to become, supposedly? Maybe, maybe not.)
I'll go with NOT!
Well, I just think it's one of his best songs (surprise surprise, right?) and from what I've read, Stan went with his creativity regarding the drum beat and man...that song bounces along, doesn't it? I don't even want to think about it ending up on WF even if it was close to the recording of that album.
As far as last hurrahs go, in my opinion, Stan left on a high note whether or not he literally did leave after this song from that session and never looked back as the story is told. It's also told there are more tunes from that, a hidden last Stan Lynch on Drums TPATH album, maybe one day that'll emerge, if some of it wasn't too used up by Playback.
cheers
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On August 20, 2019 at 4:18 PM, TheSameOldDrew said:And I can't imagine anyone suffering through that long story TP told during the cover of "Gloria" without being a dedicated pot smoker. To each his/her own, but that just wasn't my thing, my kind of story, or my kind of music.
I agree on all points though to be fair, the first couple times I heard it from the Fillmore recording I liked it as part of the overall feel of the show. But two, maybe three but more likely two listens were enough for me. But people love that story, pot or no pot. If you really want to wander down the crazy links of set lists discussions I'll point out the way; very polarizing.
I feel like I've inundated you with links though so maybe you'd appreciate a break from them.
cheers
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On March 13, 2009 at 10:09 AM, weird monkey said:The fortune in my fortune cookie Wednesday night said, "Hold on Tight to Your Dreams". I'm taking that as a message from God thankyouverymuch.
I believe in God.
I think sometimes we get messages from God whether or not we understand them.
I hope things turned out good for weird monkey.
cheers
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3 hours ago, Shelter said:Like I said, I too sense development in TP's music over time. It has been discussed elsewhere (MJ2LD, links please!) from multiple perspectives, the extent to which TP may have changed styles in terms of songwriting and sound, both in studio and live, when such changes may have occured and how suddenly is part of debate legend. Haha.
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On August 20, 2019 at 4:18 PM, TheSameOldDrew said:TPATH was originally built on shorter, punchy songs with defiant lyrics, rather than what we saw with the mid/late 90's output. Yet - they had done things their way for more than 15 years, the excesses of the 1970's that they'd fought against were largely forgotten by then,
Did you like when they jammed in concert, let's say from the WF tour on?
Mike's surf instrumental, Breakdown, It's Good To Be King, Drivin' Down to Georgia, extended Mary Jane's, was that fun for you or would you have preferred them to maybe have one or two big numbers and the rest more of the tighter flow they had in the 70s and 80s. I think I included Shelter's Jam Extravaganza link above but if that's not to your taste, I could see why you'd have no comment on it.
I see that link was in another topic but here it is again:
cheers
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3 hours ago, TheSameOldDrew said:if the other band members were as happy about changing direction as TP. Stan obviously didn't like the change. Mike started a side project to do the kind of music he liked. Ben and Howie, who knows.
That is a good question that I don't think has ever been asked. Could have been but it's new to me and it's a good one. I really don't know on this one.
My impression is the band wasn't always effusive with praise even when they liked something but that's a bit to the side of your question. I think they also let Tom know when they weren't feeling it.
But overall direction?
Stan is always mentioned that he doesn't like the direction, but the others...??? Hmm.
To speculate, I think it's a mix, that is, they love being in the band overall, or the pluses far outweigh any minuses, and love playing music together. I figure having played together for so long, they love some music he writes, and just figure they'll ride out the ones they don't like. Guessing about the inside, it seems like they'd just have a different view, focused on the current song and doing the best they could with that; so any change in sound or direction to them wouldn't be the same to the listeners. And besides, once an album was done and the tour stars, they usually didn't play too much new stuff anyway. So the new album just becomes something from the past, especially once that tour ended. Each new album is a fresh start for the band and probably viewed as such.
I figure most of the band was fine with any direction Tom went in as it was more about the journey (once they'd become successful) and less about any particular destination. And any changes of the type you mention above, may not even have been noticed by the band as it was incremental from their perspective. Right now, a new listener could throw on Damn the Torpedoes followed up by Echo and have quite a bit of "shock". But I don't think it was the same for the band, aside I guess, from Stan.
It occurs to me now that reuniting Mudcrutch and recording Mojo were big evident changes, not just in sound but in overall approach and from what I've read, I think all involved both with Mudcrutch and back with the Heartbreakers liked the change. I think they all love the blues and let that and keeping Mike's playing in the forefront; whether one considers Mojo blues or "blues" it was a definite change to be that self-indulgent on a record and from what I gathered, they all liked it!
Well, that's my thought on the matter. Interesting question, maybe one day someone will ask someone from the band that particular query.
cheers
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6 hours ago, Shelter said:My personal guess is that any original fan of GD would have found, no matter how impressive and soulful the playing, the performances and the posibilities of the band, a TPATH concert a bit too scripted and too tightly secured square and a TPATH album, no matter how groovy and awesome the material, a few ballparks too removed from the truly communal creating, live played atmosphere and organic feel of the recordings
Makes sense to me. If fans did indeed migrate over than I reckon they largely stuck to the studio albums or enjoyed TPATH once a tour as soon as they realized how different in live approach the band was.
Maybe I'm wrong but to speculate, perhaps the WF tour was a chance for the band to adopt a more free form approach live, including the hits of course but adopting the more groove-oriented and extended jamming, finding perhaps, the challenging balance between satisfying those who show up for "don't bore us get to the chorus" and others who enjoy the interplay between guitars and piano.
Sure some would've been lost but other fans gained and there is an audience out there with the means and desire to follow bands to varying degrees. Could it have been done? Maybe. But perhaps that moment in time, if there was indeed an influx of GD fans, was during the WF tour, new fans, new album, new drummer and a new approach.
But it didn't happen and it worked out anyway for TPATH, they seemed to only get larger and more successful as a live band, considering the low or "low" moments of the Let Me Up tour; perhaps one could look to them and their progression and apply it to one's own life when down or facing insurmountable odds.
The band could've ended before FMF even happened, yet they went from using a curtain to hide empty seats to playing Fenway Park.
ciao
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3 hours ago, Shelter said:Funny, it's about as little as I figured I could get away with, given the subject..
I've heard, under protest, things can kind of ripple concerinng GD.
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1 hour ago, TheSameOldDrew said:As a preview, I am nearly 100% in the Stan camp, save for Steve doing an awesome job on "Hypnotic Eye" and for playing "Free Fallin'" better than Stan live. Both of those topics are always interesting to me.
I really enjoyed the WF tour and thought Steve did a good job for being thrown into the situation more or less. The guitar sounds, extended songs and heaviness of his playing fit the mood of the songs some of which I enjoyed more in concert than on compact disc.
But I understand how disappointed people were to see Stan go and missed his feel with the drums, backup vocals and altogether unique personal energy on stage regardless of how things existed backstage between them.
cheers
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59 minutes ago, Shelter said:in the midst of all these aspects of "traditional" vs "new" TP music, of band vs solo approach, bombastic and perfectionist ultra crisp production styles.. live, cut, paste, smoke.. eh - actually ends with Built To Last. Ok then, I say.
Ha ha, nice observation and damn fine essay. Damn The Essays. There you go, title for the book you should/could/won't/? write on TP.
Man, that is some good writing and interesting points!
Most I've ever read on the GD in my life as they are not a band that interest me in the least, aside from the knowledge of how they shaped their live shows and improvisation on stage. If anything, that would've been to the good for the band and the fans had Tom shaped their owns shows influenced by the GD in this area, with the largely (?) untapped jamming potential of the Heartbreakers.
Whom am I to say though, because people loved seeing them live regardless of their approach on stage, evidence of how potent those hit singles are and how deceptively easy they may seem to create from the outside. Though I'm sure, as noted with Wildflowers (the song) that sometimes they were easy and sometimes like Tom noted about the Waiting, he had to keep at it.
As for comments on your comments, when I've the time; in the meantime I'm curious what anyone else, including the Same Old Drew make of your interesting and well considered points above. A lot of places to open up some interesting dialogue, we'll see. Regardless, it made for some nice reading.
Thanks for sharing Shelter.
cheers
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