MaryJanes2ndLastDance

Nicely worded.

I couldn't even recall how this one went and fired it up online. Oh, yes, this is awful. It sounds like a bad Wilbury's outtake, I don't care for this one at all. The music is flat and dull, the "ow ow ow" part awful on the ears, this is just a bad track. cheers

Ha ha! Yeah, I quite like Rhino Skin quite a bit and agreed about Gainesville. Knowing what went on during that time period it's not surprising that they didn't play much from it. I think Tom must've had some sort of connection to Swingin', perhaps because of the spontaneous nature of the jam it emerged from, that he played it a few times on their final tour. cheers

I thought maybe others would engage on this with you. I don't want to break it down to percentages and I couldn't anyway but my impression is the Beatles covered more ground than TPATH. But within their format, TPATH were more than just an average rock band from the 70s and there's a lot of little flourishes and touches within a lot of their songs that helped make them different, aside from the more obviously "experimental" like DCAHNM, Money Becomes King, Its Rainin' Again, Looking for Daddy etc. It ain't nothin indeed. cheers

Ha ha! Yeah, well...there aren't a lot of options with Happy Echo or uptempo Echo. cheers

That's 'cause you have no heart. It's fine, you can admit it, you're among friends here. I think that's the big selling point of the album, the downer effect. People enjoy the moodiness of the record, the exploration or expunging of dark feelings, sadness and so forth. I'm fine with that if the music was more to my liking, but the songs they came up with coupled to the lyrics just make for one un-compelling listen. Long, dreary, a bit of a slog. But I get why people enjoy or appreciate the record. Maybe that's what it should have been called: Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers 10th album, THE DOWNER EFFECT, for when regular misery and heartache just aren't enough. Get some exercise in with Swingin' but be prepared to go down hard. Tired of people with their talking? Lock yourself in with Room at the Top and never come down! Except when you come down hard with Billy The Kid. But don't worry, it Won't Last Long, heck who has time for that when you can wallow in a sad, sad Echo. Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers 10th album, THE DOWNER EFFECT. Fun for the whole family! cheers

You realize you are questioning my whole standard operating method here, right? Ha ha ha!

Of course yes. I'd put the Ramones as a band that succeeded by largely hewing to an ideal, but even within their more or less rigid guidelines they varied it a bit. But yes to your point but I guess I wasn't clear enough with mine. Any time I discuss TPATH as experimental, it's relative to themselves as a band, not in comparison to Radiohead, or Neutral Milk Hotel or whomever. People discuss songs they like or don't like, or attempt at concept records (SA and The Last DJ) but I don't recall anyone really getting into the whole variety of each song within each record. Maybe they did and I missed it. Maybe it's just too much minutiae. When Drew mentioned variety within the albums it seemed like another avenue for conversation, who knows maybe a cul-de-sac. I agree. Probably a huge reason for his appeal, let alone his often succinct yet poignant lyrics. I think that sums it up well. Ha! Yes. For me, it's how far they pushed things from time to time within their own context, hence DCAHNM, Lookin, etc. It's odd but I think the popular perception is ex-angry corporate defying, laid back hippy guy of rock-n-roll with some super catchy hits and one more or less mellow classic in WF. I think most would balk at the word "experimental" being used anywhere near TPATH, especially when contrasted with rock music over the years, that's why I've usually qualified it. At the same time, most people on this forum are aware of the wider range of songwriting, even within the TPATH context you and Drew mention above and it's not something that really gets discussed much. Then again, perhaps there isn't much to say about it. Take Money Becomes King. There's no chorus, or not in the traditional sense, just verse after verse. The only time (I think) where he's done that. Second song on the album too. But I don't recall anyone else mentioning it. But then, once mentioned what to add to it? Could someone pull out some meaning as to why? Is it ironic perhaps? A band that was all about Don't bore us get to the chorus releasing a song discussing the sell out of a musician lacking a chorus? Or perhaps showing how once Johnny went down that road he lost that magic, to create a chorus. My guess is neither, but just that it felt right and the song came to Tom that way. So maybe, much like this digression away from ranking is the same thing you said about the band, that there's only so far to take this type of conversation before losing peoples's patience or perhaps warping topic and meaning beyond recognition. But anyway yeah, I agree with you, crazy experimental band they weren't, but I generally like anytime they ventured off their own beaten path. I think eventually respect came with time, after a couple decades of new listeners just took in Tom's music as the quote soundtrack to their lives. Greatest Hits became ubiquitous and people appreciated how he and the band did so much with so little. But I agree, and I think I stumbled on the explanation for it from a movie critic who said something like after watching so many movies they were eager for films who didn't follow a traditional structure. TPATH were all about tradition, from the verse-chorus-verse of their songs to playing covers from the early days of rock and blues. If one is listening to nonstop verse-chorus-verse "heartland rock" I could see why they'd get fed up with it and want something different in addition to wanting artists to progress. That doesn't mean they should dismiss bands like TPATH who deliver rock-n-roll. Perhaps there's an underestimation of that style of music because there's so much of it. I'd prefer traditional to derivative really but I could see TPATH having a collective laugh over the whole discussion of what critics think. Yes, but oblique lyrics have their place too. But Tom's way with words, as you say, really connected. As far as we know, they never did TPATH's Magical Swamp Tour but I'd have been curious to hear them go completely weird for one album, to whatever degree. I don't know if I agree but I respect you putting forth the argument! I've not listened to the Beatles in a long time aside from the occasional song and a lot of their music was either too teeny-bopper or ballady and maudlin for my taste. I'd rather listen to Blue Jay Way or Octopus's Garden to something like The long and Winding Road. But if people engage with you on this, I see a lot of disbelief at your statement if not outright fury. All right, maybe not fury but certainly some disagreement. If I listened to them more I'd have an opinion on this, certainly by reputation alone it seems they covered more musical ground than TPATH, just with some of that album, Abbey Road with the song snippets thrown together and that long dirge that goes and on and on and suddenly cuts off; or the ending of A Day in the Life, or putting two versions of a title song on one album, Sgt. Pepper or the sonic stupidity of Revolution or is it Revolution 9 which is both funny and annoying at once. They went from short quick ditties of pop perfection like Paperback Writer and Help and Hold your Hand to things like Within You, and Mr. Kite. And Penny Lane. Geez, I feel like I'm already offering a rebuttal. And here I approved of you making such a bold statement. No, I think the Beatles, not even based on having listened to a third if that of their output were more experimental and diverse and thus covered more ground musically in their songwriting than TPATH. This went in an unexpected direction. But it doesn't matter, TPATH stayed true to Tom's creativity, that's what counts. And I think, in their own way, especially around DTT through, I don't know, maybe LAD they'd come up with as Benmont called it, their chamber music approach which really was unique, as soon as certain TPATH songs start there's an instant recognition, those intros with the different instruments joining in at different points before unifying, well...is there another band from that period of time that sounded like that? That feeling, vibe, Tom's songwriting and a bit of weirdness running through the band helped differentiate them from their peers. I'd say that the Beatles were more eclectic for sure than TPATH. As to the weighing of whose songs are better, well, that's just subjective. And again, I don't want TPATH to be the Beatles, very wisely neither did they. Just like I don't want some future band to be TPATH or Pearl Jam or Pixies, influenced sure, but following their own unique creativity, whether it's all out experimental rock, more traditional or some point between. cheers

Ha ha, definitely. Glad you did so. I really thought they'd get it together to have it released like you said. At this point, I won't say never but I don't see any point in pining away after it. I feel badly for the fans who have been waiting years for it, teased by a release that hasn't happened; I'm not in that group but it's more for their benefit than my own I've been hoping it would be released already. Maybe one day. I would be curious to hear what exactly caused the delay if Tom had it all set in place. Who cares if Ryan found more tracks, should've released those another time and gone with Tom's vision. If it was completed. It's a mess and while not as beaten into the ground as the set list issue, it's a sadly well worn loop of mixed messages, frustration and disappointment. I think that's part of the appeal, a bit of a come down after the more harder rocking tracks and a totally different vibe. But I agree, Casa Dega could've fit on the end. I think it has more in common with DTT than Louisiana Rain but perhaps that difference is what makes it work (for some) as the conclusion to the record. cheers

Shelcho.

I think it was in Paul Zollo's Conversations with Petty book. Granted his taste may have changed but I could see why he liked it so much, having a big hit album after putting in so much work, weathering Stan's departure and moving in another direction from ITGWO, and I think, he was proud of the songs he'd come up with, and the mix, from the harder edged You Wreck Me and Honey Bee to Wake Up Time and Only A Broken Heart etc. what he viewed as the diversity of the album. ciao

Good effort. I don't know if there's enough to really call it happy, but here is a more uptempo record. Though a part of me feels like they should've gone all in on the misery and kept anything pointing towards hope, or defiance or with a quick beat for an e.p. and just wallowed in the darkness and gloom. I kept with Shelter's A and B side approach: A1 Room @ Top---I just think this is a good start, particularly the way it transitions with the drums and has two excellent solos. A2 Swingin' A3 Billy The Kid A4 I Don't Belong A5 Free Girl Now A6 No More B1 Sweet William---copping from Shelter but its good, it's a nice way to rev up side B. B2 Won't Last Long---I'd keep the energy up with the next couple songs B3 I Don't Wanna Fight B4 Rhino Skin B5 One More Day---Good outro solo, good end to the album. That would totally transform the album, but like I said, if they'd gone all in with the darkness that would've been fine since I don't like the album anyway, but at least it would be one solid consistent block. But some people, like TomFest and others love the record as is and I get that too. Doing this really makes it evident that even uptempo numbers have a gloomy or fatalistic side. Billy The Kid, going down hard. Sure, he gets up but this whole album seems about going down hard in different ways. Even the fun (for me, I realize a lot of people can't stand the song) I Don't Wanna Fight is a reaction to something negative. cheers

Overall I think that's a pretty balanced mix of songs, I particularly like the way you'd close out Side B, the feeling of fighting, resignation and the pleading desperate finale, kind of like the character in Room at the Top has fallen all the way down but is now moving forward into the unknown. Not exactly hopeful but not a complete misery either. I also like how you delineated A and B sides, as the record is probably best appreciated in chunks, not all at once, as you note, the songs go on a bit. cheers

Aside from Greatest Hits I would think they'd look to other albums besides DTT, FMF and WF for tracks since (and I could be wrong) those are the three most popular or well known records, odds are if people are going to put some money down besides GH it'll be on one of those. cheers

Interesting; never thought of it that way before as some kind of big note of defiance within the album and as you say, "devastating songs." I always thought of it as more of a fun heck with it track like I Don't Wanna Fight but I like your take on it. cheers

I just tried giving it another listen but it's the same feeling, the marching tempo music, the way Tom sings, the tightness of the drums, all of it rubs me the wrong way and then the terrible chorus kicks in, it just comes across so self-pitying to me. But you're right about others like it, otherwise it wouldn't have ended up on that box set. I do like This One's For Me though, "catchy brother" is a good way of putting it too. cheers

Dreams of Flying is a great song! I like Beautiful Blue though I have to be in the mood for it as it goes on for quite a while. Full Grown Boy took just a couple listens for me to like it. U Get Me High is driven by Tom's bass playing I think, definitely one of my faves on HE but you like what you like. Maybe some time in the future these songs will grow on you, maybe not. cheers

I should add if you like all the songwriting on ITGWO then that's a heck of a good record for you to listen to! It's got a bit of everything, tender songs, fast ones, the moody groove of It's Good To Be True and the heaviness of All or Nothin'. For me, the weaker songs drag the record down for me a bit. cheers

I think that is a common perception of the record; while for me it wasn't as good as FMF I still really like it quite a bit. Returning to Drew's point about a lot of different styles or feelings to the songs, I think that really holds true with ITGWO, even with the numbers I don't care for (All The Wrong Reasons, Kings Highway, ITGWO etc.) there's a wide range of emotion to the record. All or Nothin', Makin' Some Noise and Built To Last all have such different approaches in music, tempo and feeling and are a lot of fun to listen to. It does feel of a piece. If you didn't know, I guess after hearing FMF and listening to it nonstop, Rubin wanted to work with Petty and that's why they ended up doing Wildflowers together; very simplified version. But I guess he loved FMF. For me, Echo is too long and a lot of the songs just don't connect. I think Accused of Love could be the nadir of the record and one of the worst things Tom ever wrote. Oddly enough though, when I think about it now, Rhino Skin and the line about "elephant balls" shows his stubborness and dedication to his creativity; I guess some wanted him to change it but it's an effective and funny lyric. Full Moon Fever. Just a great run of songs, perfectly placed on the record. Side A is just fantastic, it's so good but then Side B is equally good yet different. I think Mike Campbell played his best solo ever in the outro to Runnin' Down A Dream. A Face in the Crowd is moody and evocative, Zombie Zoo a carnivalesque stomp and then you've got Alright For Now, a simple, powerful lullaby right towards the end. It's one of those records you could just play front to back over and over. I feel the same about Hypnotic Eye, a really good run of songs at nearly forty years into being a band! Tom could've gone a more singer-songwriter approach, or kept with the blues or "blues" of Mojo but instead went for a rockin' album. The first three songs alone are these really good rock songs, yet each are so different, the heaviness of American Dream Plan B (yet with that amazing acoustic moment), the thrilling groove of Fault Lines and then boom! Red River, that opening sounds so heavy, yet kinda makes me feel like I'm hearing a big band play that first note/chord. I think they perfectly balanced faster moving or heavier tracks with lighter ones. The album has a couple different songs that could serve as the emotional core of the album, from All You Can Carry's defiance in the face of adversity to the celebration of the imagination in U Get Me High. The record ends on an epic song for them, from Benmont's piano intro, the heavy groove and then the optimistic finish with just Tom and a guitar. Well, anyway, those are my top two TPATH records (I just ignore that FMF is a solo album when I mention my favorite) and while I won't say it's impossible for them to be knocked down, I doubt it. I think, aside from the singles that a lot of TPATH records are a mix of filler songs (from my perspective not the band's) or weaker tracks and others that are good, but not too many albums of theirs I can listen to from beginning to end, so it's a combination of the songwriting, performances and the tracklisting. cheers

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say "best" but based on An American Treasure and even that new song tacked on at the end of the other box set, Best of Everything, I'd say there could be quite a number of good songs, hopefully across a variety of style's (as Drew noted above). Walkin' From The Fire could be my favorite of that bunch. And some time earlier they released Lookin' for Daddy which to my ears, is one of their more experimental tunes. Maybe there's some really weird stuff in the vaults, songs that will make Don't Come Around Here No More sound pretty straightforward. The band certainly seems to think so, alluding to lots of songs so I guess we'll see. cheers

Wingin' it is good! You got Money Becomes King on The Last DJ, My Life/Your World on LMU, Shadow People and Full Grown Boy on HE, what else? It's a good point, maybe something that might seem obvious now but was left unsaid, maybe never really discussed on here before. A good observation to make! cheers

I understood you, I just figured it was interesting that the "best o' the best" at least among the 16 voters ended up with that grouping. This could've been 16 people who favored the more mellow end of things, like HC and Echo. But yes, there is a pretty good mix which you get into below: That's a pretty good breakdown (pun intended). Though I'd maybe put FMF with the DTT bunch but really, that's a pretty good summary. Reminds me of a girl I knew, she said she cared about me...no no, that's not what she said, what she said was how TPATH covered a wide mix of musical styles, this was after watching the WF show, at night on the lawn, dancing under the stars, years and years ago. We all pretty much agreed with her. There's been finer nights since but I didn't know how good I had it at the time. I suppose one could take your perspective and map it onto the Greatest Hits, a fine mixture of jangling, hard rocking, moody, and even a dash of the psychedelic. Yes. It's neat how there's the Greatest Hits, and a few albums that are still considered classic, DTT, FMF & WF and the rest a melange of styles for the more hardcore fan to seek out. And on this forum a combination of people who have all kinds of differing taste and opinion. cheers

More my point was that it could've been more skewed with their more rocking albums (DTT/HE/FMF/Self-titled/) or the more mellow, depressing ones (Echo/WF/Last Dj/Mojo) but instead ended up with a mix. It seemed to have a lot of fans on here as I recall but who knows. That's an album that keeps dropping in my estimation, same with Last Dj. I see how it is. Fine, be that way, ignore 8 3/4. Yeah, makes sense. I agree about the strangeness as well, of which I think it continues on here and there even just from little things like "normal noises in here" to all out with the ITGWO stage show. There is a sense of them trying anything and having fun with the process. That's a first. I mean the energy, I don't blame you for being afraid, ranking can be a serious business. Despite the much lauded and worked for drum sounds on DTT, which I like, I also like the drums on the first two records as well, overall both album one and two sound quite good to me. cheers

That's an interesting combination, definitely getting a whole range of emotions from the band. I think of ITGWO as largely a happy album, from the bright cover, to the chiming guitars, the fun of Makin Some Noise, Learning to Fly and the power of You and I Will Meet Again. Even Built to Last ushers the listener home on warm soft sounds. Which is a far cry from Echo, an album cover so gray and gloomy it fits the songs within. Thanks for sharin'! cheers

I think if more people participate Echo will rise and STO will drop a bit.