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MaryJanes2ndLastDance

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  1. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    Article on When The Time Comes

    http://somethingelsereviews.com/2014/05/27/into-the-great-wide-open-tom-petty-when-the-time-comes-from-youre-gonna-get-it-1978/
  2. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    Words on the '87 Mansfield Show

    Breakdown---First of all, good sound quality. No no, first of all, thanks to Mikemono for livepetty.com where I downloaded this show again. A live TPATH's ideal site. I like the rollicking thick sound of the drums, and I think I understand why so many people miss Stan as a drummer. Recently I've appreciated behind-the-beat drumming more, whereas before I loved precision with wild fills. Well, I like both. Anyway, whomever recorded this show, did a good job since his drums to my ears, are very potent. Mike (or Tom) has some nice jagged playing in the intro. What I most like is the song goes on a bit without Tom going into his "rap". It's a nice opener with some nice playing by Stan. I don't think Phil Jones was with them on this tour, correct? I think a lot of their songs would've benefited by a couple minutes here and there added on, like the way they do with this version of Breakdown. It's good groove, power and eases the audience into the show. Think About Me----Well, this feels like a whole other band at this point, not in performance but in style of the show. Second song and it's a new one! Nice. It's a very bouncy song, nice organ playing too. More on this as it goes. American Girl---ha ha ha, third song in.Very bouncy. I guess over the years, aside from Tom's acoustic takes in the early 90s they performed this one the same from tour to tour. Not much to add other than it's interesting seeing it so early in the show, it hadn't quite attained that anthemic status it would over the next couple decades. My Life/Your World---Another new one and perhaps one of the top three from that album. I really enjoy the groove on this one, it's such a weird song for them. I wonder what it was like for the crowd, did they wonder what the heck is this following American Girl or did they just groove along on alcohol or weed or nothing at all? I'm grooving along to it with my black coffee (non Maxwell House). Some nice but all too short soloing in the outro. Here Comes My Girl---This just sounds good. Could this be Tom's most romantic song? Well, one of them. A lot of truth in it. And the music just glides along, a very smooth ride, a ballad with motion. The outro playing sounds a bit extended, just a bit. Of course I'd have enjoyed a good three minutes of that jangly outro. Builds to a nice end. Listen To Her Heart----Some nice fills from Stan. The thing is, either accept TPATH as the band they were in concert or why bother listening to them? This is one of the best TPATH songs in my opinion, yet it was pretty much business as usual live, so...after hearing it so many times, it's y'know, a good song. But it's why the Let Me Up songs sound so vibrant in comparison. High energy ending to this one. For What It's Worth---I appreciate the sentiments during the intro. But it just goes on too long. I do like the song when they get to it. And a different cover for them I don't know if they ever returned to it after this tour. Not much to say about it. The playing is good, nice lead moments from Mike. But overall this doesn't do much for me. I guess as something different it is all right. The outro is good, nice and heavy for them. The Waiting---Another really great TPATH song. I like both versions, when they dive right into the song or when they do this type of intro. I really enjoy Tom's strumming, nice clapping from the crowd. Again a lotta truth in the lyrics. I like the false ending, it nearly sounds like Tom is ending the song there before continuing on. I think my favorite version of this though is from the 89 or 90 bootleg N. Carolina I think. But this is good. Maybe held back a bit, the drums sound a bit plodding here for some reason. DCAHNM----I like the syncopated drumming at the start and some of Mike's playing. Sounds like the beginnings of the intro for this song that would continue on through the 95 tour where I think they went back to drum intro then extended again in 99 for the Echo tour. I don't know what to say about it. Probably just heard it too much over time. It's still a good song and a unique number for sure. But at this point, they don't stretch the outro enough. Probably among other reasons, why my favorite version of this is from the ITGWO tour, since the guys in masks chasing Tom had the band keep playing longer. I guess this is the issue with writing something like this, it's a fool's task, as how many times can one say the same thing about the songs that are played so frequently and with such little variation. I guess this is why I listen to so much of the Steve years since they incorporated more of the longer jam songs in their repertoire. Maybe this is too why so many reviews of the Live Anthology centered on the number and quality of the covers. Across their 40 years as a band, there's plenty of one off covers and/or the deep cuts, like the recently revealed Same Old You. Probably why it's good to take some space from listening to them. It'll All Work Out----This and Runaway Trains to me, are the centerpiece of the record. It's just a lovely song with some truly lovely playing. Nice organ accompaniment from Benmont! This is just one of their very best songs in my opinion and this a lovely version. Riverflow----Never heard this before. I guess the music and lyrics match well. Nice playing. Not much of an opinion either way. It's different. I suppose I'd pass on this, too bad they didn't fit in Self Made Man or something here. Oh well. Runaway Trains---I've more to say on this. I've heard the live version of this before and it's good. I prefer it to the too gentle, too 80s synth of the original, from the way it starts, the guitars are heavier, Stan's quick tap on the cowbell, it's a nice build up. This feels like the anthem that wasn't or could've been. I think this is the other half of the core of the record and felt it should've been placed in the middle of the record not as track two. But back to this performance, it's good. It's got power to it. I guess for fans of the original, you either like this take on it and get two different versions or maybe you're disappointed. I hope it's the former. Much like It Ain't Nothin' To Me, one of my faves from Southern Accents had an energized performance, so too with this song, each played on their respective tours and never again. As far as we know. The main riff from the intro that appears throughout the song is nice and grungy, a good counterpart to the sweeter melodic part. The outro is really good with some nice playing all around, this is peak "chamber music" live, again Stan with some nice fills. I think this and Jammin' Me could be the best parts of this concert/the Let Me Up tour. At different points in the day I heard this song in my head while doing mundane tasks. I prefer this version to the recorded take, thinking about it now it kinda reminds me of Crawling Back To You, maybe in just the way the song flows but that could be a fleeting notion. For a band that seemed not interested in following trends, they really did so with Let Me Up in terms of the sound or the synthesizers or whatever. And I think the song most impacted (negatively for me, positively for others of course) is Runaway Trains. It reminds me much how I feel Southern Accents would've possibly been improved with a grittier sound, the live version of Runaway Trains is a good example of that. By having more crunch in the guitars and less of the 80s gloss, not only does the song rock harder but the melodic parts have more impact. It's definitely an anthemic song that never made it past this tour. At least there's some good recordings of it out there. Should I Stay or Should I go---I think most can relate to the song title. I do enjoy the random instrumental noise before they start playing the song. Along with the concept of TPATH as more of a jam band that wasn't, so too sometimes I wonder what a noisy experimental/weird album from them would be like, their version of it, where songs like It's Rainin' Again and Lookin' for Daddy and the normal noises or whatever were the main foundation of a record instead of the exceptions. Nice playing overall. A lot of good raucous energy. I like this song but there isn't anything particularly special about it or about them playing it. See, another reason I generally didn't care for the covers was because if TPATH weren't going to play their deep cuts, who else would? And would anyone really want to hear them not sung by Tom etc. etc.? It's the Let Me Up tour, why not play the title song? Oh well. I guess between this and some of their other covers I'd take this. Even The Losers---One of their best songs. Some parts of this feel a bit slower and then it seems to speed up but I think that's part of the charm. I really enjoy the outro, it seems like this song used to get a bit of an extended outro a bit too. Now that I think about it, did this song just fall away over the past couple tours? Of course I can go look it up. Is this even right? Not played since 2008? That doesn't seem right. Anyway, I think I've heard better versions of this but this is still pretty good with some nice drumming from Stan. Jammin Me----My understanding is this was played on this tour, a bit on the 89 (?) tour and then in 97 and 99. For a radio single it didn't last as long as one would think; I still don't get why it was left off Greatest Hits. First perfectly after DCAHNM. Anyway. That intro is great! I think I heard another bootleg where it goes on longer. But still...this song shows how much power a simple chord riff can have. Back and forth, it's relentless. Interesting to note the different names in the verse. Something sounds refreshingly different from the later versions of the song, a guitar f/x or something. I like it. A lot of energy to it as well, the Steve versions seem more heavy, this is lighter. One of the big surprises of seeing them in '99 was getting this as the first song. Quite a fun surprise! Nice lead playing, whomever is doing it before the "pasadena" line is doing something different and disjointed, I like it. Anyway, this is a good rock song and it's usually nice to hear it, on this tour, at the Fillmore or from '99. But this tour has it at its peak, between Stan's drumming during the outro where he's given more free reign, the intro and some of the outro soloing! Man, some sweet playing from 4:47-5:01. Picture them leaving off IGTBK and throwing this in as an epic guitar shred fest. But I'll stop there. Refugee---I like the breakdown, the soloing, the sparseness, a trick they return to throughout their whole career but darn if it ain't effective. I like whatever Stan's doing on the drums there. Too soon for my taste Tom returns to the singing. This is a bit faster than I recall later versions of the song but that makes sense. Jeez, this is what, thirty some years before their final tour. Crazy. Anyway, they never took great liberties with this song (save that one show at Neil Young's benefit school in San Fran) but whenever they did it was welcome as the song can stretch out a bit without losing its character. Nice energy version. I'm so used to Runnin' Down A Dream following this one. Bye Bye Johnny---It's all right depending on my mood. But generally, this early style of rock music doesn't do much for me. However, the energy they bring to it is good. I think this kind of short high energy song works best after a mammoth long show or at least a very long jam song; it feels in some way like the peak of this show was with Runaway Trains or maybe Jammin' Me. The version I have seems to cut off right at the end but that's fine. I guess that's it. Kind of a short show. Glad their shows got longer again as they went along. A highlight, the further one goes back in TPATH bootlegs is the differences, shows without the well worn FMF and WF songs. Covers that, while I'd prefer deep cuts, are potentially different and a whole different energy feel from the band. They weren't a punk band, but a show like this, some of their songs almost feel punk, or out and out rockabilly or something. It's fun to hear. I'm glad the band evolved into more of a jam band, like with IGTBK or Saving Grace, Face in the Crowd, Two Men Talking, Travelin' Light, Melinda etc. But there's something unique and enjoyable about these earlier tours; or I could just be romanticizing them because I've heard them less overall and they just sound fresh and there's more, or a bit more variation in the shows than concerts later on, like say from the HE tour to the 40th. I think novelty's a big factor in my enjoyment of this show and perhaps these older concerts overall but that's not to downplay the quality of the performances and while I'd enjoy a ten minute Jammin' Me I'm still glad they extended the songs as they did. cheers
  3. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    Words on the '87 Mansfield Show

    Wow, good ear! Nice. I still enjoy the show and the LMU songs sound quite good, particularly Runaway Trains and Jammin' Me. That's a bold choice as I could see people losing interest fairly fast with the song, and it's a bit longer for them. I think it's one of those songs that either drum does it well, it worked with both men's styles. I understand them leaving off the intro but it's a shame they didn't even jam out for a good two minutes during the outro, well, as far as the versions I've heard. Still, no complaints, like I said, I was shocked when they played it in '99 and I got to hear it in person. Quite fun! Even if I had the programs to do so it's not something I'd put the time into, most likely just find another live recording. But the slowed down recording sounds fine to me, thought if indeed TomFest is right then a properly adjusted one would be even more high energy. I still think the '91 or '92 is a good demarcation between the old band and what they evolved into, a shifting line I guess, but looking back, this tour was the las time Stan played without feeling like being in a cover band for some of the songs. Now granted that could've been him exaggerating his feelings and it's all ancient history by this point but with LMU being produced by the band, it was at its time the most pure Heartbreakers album; it seems that they hit the ground running on this tour, it's got a lot of higher energy songs. I agree. cheers
  4. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    Words on the '87 Mansfield Show

    But what was their first phonograph single? I didn't know that about All Mixed Up. I like the song though it's not one of my favorites from the record. I think it was chosen because it has a poppy sort of feel musically and relationship lyrics so maybe they thought it had wider appeal. They got Jammin Me as the rock song, here's something different. Well, that's how it seems from way...way....outside. It seems like a logical strategy. I wonder if My Life/Your World would've had bigger success. I guess a record company/radio can push a song but if people don't react to it there's nothing they can do. Well, push it more but eventually they'd stop. Not that All Mixed Up was heavily promoted or not. Hey! What do you make of the '87 shows that you've heard Shelter? ciao!
  5. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    Words on the '87 Mansfield Show

    Gotcha. Ditto! cheers
  6. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    Words on the '87 Mansfield Show

    That whole anecdote is hilarious, ha ha! Thanks for sharing, nicely written. Ah, that makes sense. I'm glad you had such a memorable night with such vivid memories. Kindly share some more and what you thought of the band when you've the chance. That's neat you have a good sounding souvenir from the show to accompany your memories. cheers
  7. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    Words on the '87 Mansfield Show

    Thanks. I think I might have heard this one years ago, I'll go check it out sometime again as I'm not quite sure where my copy is. I do recall being upset when Jammin Me sounded weird. I guess I'll just be glad he taped the show even if he danced. I can't blame him for dancing during those songs ha ha! It's a definite highlight on your favorite bootleg. For me, this and Finding Out (which at least has the Houba Houba performance) are two of the biggest surprises. I wonder if they tried 'em in rehearsal and they didn't work. Was Let Me Up considered a throwaway? But then, the album is named after it, right? And that outro, that one line, I think it's on guitar that's either ascending or descending I don't recall, is so darn good! It'd be interesting maybe if someone interviewed one of the band and inquired about these songs. Anyway, very good rock song. I agree! cheers
  8. https://www.mudcrutch.com/forum/index.php?/topic/13600-learning-to-fly/& You may find this interesting. And while I'm at it: https://www.mudcrutch.com/forum/index.php?/topic/15010-do-you-have-a-favorite-re-worked-song/&tab=comments#comment-303245 cheers
  9. I think Mike Mono could make a better recommendation but there's this one: https://livepetty.com/2008-07-23-minneapolis-mn-aud/
  10. Since you're not a big fan of the Steve drums live era of TPATH you may have missed it but find a good sounding copy of them playing Face in the Crowd from '08. I think this version is definitive. While you're at it check out Saving Grace from the same tour, again, definitive in my opinion. cheers
  11. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    You Got Lucky---best version?

    Definitely; I think the faster tempo works too. cheers
  12. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    You Got Lucky---best version?

    I looked, didn't find too much on this, I really like this version of the song, for experts in the '82 tour was this a one-off or did they do it like this frequently? The outro's great and could've become a real live showcase. cheers
  13. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    Sad News

    Good for you! God bless ya, Nurk. cheers
  14. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    Verschollene Songs by Trail of Dead

  15. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    Verschollene Songs by Trail of Dead

  16. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    Verschollene Songs by Trail of Dead

  17. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    The firing of Stan Lynch

    Drew, I don't pretend to be an expert when it comes to Stan/Steve but I think what you wrote was insightful and made a lot of sense to me; with some very good points about the origins of the band and Stan's role, not something I'd really read on this 'Farm before. Perhaps others will engage with your very thoughtful breakdown of the drum situation. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! cheers
  18. Wildflowers is a strange album for me, for many reasons. It’s definitely one of the three most significant albums Tom released (the other two being DTT and Full Moon Fever) and is responsible for bringing in a new wave of fans the same way FMF did. It’s possibly the best sounding album; all the instruments are clear, powerful and skillfully interwoven. Wildflowers took years to grow on me, and even then I have mixed feelings. One thing that’s clear though, is how good this record sounds. This could be the best sounding album Tom ever made. Every instrument clear, lush, warm. And those drums…very crisp. But the songs and the record are a dividing line, for me, the largest point of departure in his entire career. Part of that is connected to Stan but not much; it’s with the songwriting and approach that Tom changed his style of music, a style that pretty much lasted until Mojo, though its effects would even be felt on that album. I speak of the midtempo groove, the emphasis on the acoustic and songs that seem more peronsal and emotional yet are musically lacking. Listening to this album for the first time in years, my opinion hasn’t really changed that much, except for a few songs here and there. Wildflowers——As with much of this album, my opinion on this one shifted back and forth before finally settling on…it’s all right. Even though it’s only three minutes and some seconds, it’s too long. THere’s not much going on her musically but if you like it, it’s probably the perfect little song. It feels like another variation, at least in feel, with Alright For Now. It just goes on too long, repeating itself, I mean, the whole song is four chords over and over, and while that can work, in this case it grates a bit. By the two minute mark I’ve had my fill; had the song stopped there I’d probably like it quite a bit; it would be an odd little song, one verse, one chorus and that’s it. Petty cool. But no, it goes on and on. Only three minutes that feel much longer. I am impressed that he did it spontaenoulsy in one take…that is pretty special regardless of what I think of the finished song. You Don’t Know How It Feels——oh no! I really hated this song for years. Now, it’s tolerable on live recordings simply because it’s fresh to me. But it’s still not that good. That awful repetitive beat…so bland. It sounds like the death knell of the TPATH I enjoyed and really, it kinda was. it feels like this song served as a template for so much of what was to come. Even when Tom went for something faster, like Zero From Outer Space, it was the lone fast song on She’s The One. Of course, it came from these sessions, but didn’t land on this album so that’s all I’ll say about that. Regarding this song, I don’t like it. That it ended up played second on many tours just made me dislike it even more. Time To Move On——I like this more than I did when I first heard the song. The positive theme fits well with the jaunty music. But, much like Wildflowers, it goes on a bit too long and just feels the same. It kinda wears out its welcome and what seemed so instantly catchy is now a bit dull and repetitive. You Wreck Me——it’s about fucking time! After a rather somnombulent beginning, it’s good to hear something that rocks. Sure, hearing it on countless live recordings and at nearly every show I attended wore out its welcome; as did his intro for it; but…hearing it now, I can appreciate the riff, so simple yet very effective, some quick sharp drumming by Steve. This song is quite catchy in a way that other filler rock songs by him aren’t. I quite like it, despite how much I’ve heard it played. The bit at the bridge and the end is good; a very dramatic chord change, and some nice soloing by Mike. More of this on this record! It’s just what was needed. But alas…this is the only song of this tempo and caliber on here. It’s Good To Be King——a moody, dreamy song that feels epic. While they did too many midtempo grooves, they are quite good at them. A powerful, sad and self-deprecatingly funny, charming song. I like the repeating guitar line in it as well. I’m glad they extended it into the twelve range in concert. Part of the solid chunk of good songs on this record that began with You Wreck Me. Only A Broken Heart—-A devastatingly sad song. The longing in his voice is very effecting. A really great bridge, too. Musically the song has a steady beat that works in contrast to the lyrics. The organ over top everything just brings out more feeling. A very nice guitar solo during the outro. Honey Bee—-much like You Wreck Me, a desperately needed shot of adrenaline. Sure, it sounds derivative of something, some old blues song or something but I still like it. Some very fun lyrics, particularly the Pomona line. I like this one. Sure, if they go deep in their catalog I’d rather have them play something else in concert but if it’s between this and some of the other standard hit songs, I’ll take this. Especially when they extend it as they did in 99. Really good chords during the chorus, what a contrast between that and the riff! Don’t Fade On Me——The guitar playing alone makes this a good track. I think this is his most mournful song. Pure sadness. It’s one of his most heartwrenching songs. The lyrics are poignant yet open as well, one can put their own depressing spin on them. I believe this to be the bleakest song he’s ever written, a lament. Hard On Me—This is a pretty good song. Some nice playing. I feel like it could’ve been put on the end of the album. Also sounds like something from Echo. The thing is, I’ve already forgotten what it sounds like. Cabin Down Below—Reminds me of Honey Bee. It’s all right, I’ll listen to it and enjoy it on a live track; just feels like a midtempo filler type song but I like it nonetheless. Lyrically, well…interpret them as you will. I like the heaviness of the main riff. To Find A Friend——It reminds like a slightly faster version of the title track. It’s okay, I guess. I go back and forth on the lyrics, sometimes I find them charming, other times cloying. A Higher Place——The upbeat energy on this song is really refreshing at this point in the album. I like this one; I think I’d love it if the tempo were faster and it had more of an electric edge to it. A very bright pop song! Quite enjoyable. House in the Woods——I feel Wildflowers has three different closing songs. Each of these feels like a definite stopping point to me. All three in a row is too much. Nice drum fills by Steve in the middle. Very nice! Some nice playing and usually I enjoy a good extended outro (mainly live) but this goes on too long for me. These last three songs feel like sitting through the overlong credits of a special fx blockbuster. Crawling Back To You——A very interesting song. It occupies that unique space between ballad and midtempo groove, more of the latter than former. Reminds me a bit of Runaway Trains. I like it. Some of the lyrics aren’t to my liking but the tempo is interesting. Wake Up Time——A sleepy song that belies its title. Very tasteful strings. I like when he takes his voice up a notch while singing “…a long way from home…” This melody just gets right to me; it’s heartbreaking in a whole different way, if Don’t Fade On Me is dark clouds and rain, this is the rainbow shining in the sky afterwards. As an album, for my taste, it doesn’t work. Too much midtempo sad songs or strange bobdylanesque ramblings. Practically no upbeat energy. Sometimes, when I’m in just the right mood, I’ve thrown this on and appreciated for what it is but that doesn’t happen very often. I’d say its influence extends all the way, in one form or another from here through Mojo. When Tom and the fellas hit on a good riff, they can deliver powerful, chugging midtempo grooves, but when they don’t, the result is a song that goes on too long and sounds bland. Too many of these and an album is mired in quicksand. From this point forward, songs like You Wreck Me are the minority. Which doesn’t mean that he didn’t continue to record good songs, just that a certain style was largely ignored. Another weak album cover. I like the color but the imagery is so dull. Better perhaps to just have an all brown cover with that weird flower/fleur de lis-like symbol on Tom’s guitar in one corner and his name. I think I’d enjoy the songs more (possibly) had they been scattered across a variety of albums, but gathered here together, it’s all a bit one flavor for me. Still, together or separate, a lot of this I can take or leave, while still recognizing the quality of the composition, the skill with which it was recorded, every instrument just pops! and the performances. But it’s not a record I ever really listen to, the last time I heard the majority of these songs was about nine years ago. Wildflowers is, in my opinion, the largest shift in Tom’s career and one I didn’t like. cheers
  19. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    You Got Lucky---best version?

    Fair enough. I wonder if you'd feel differently if they'd recorded it during another era and just went with piano or organ. I don't think they ever did this one acoustically but I could be wrong. cheers
  20. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    You Got Lucky---best version?

    Wow! Maybe post your thoughts on the show when you've the chance. I've mislabeled a few folders my self from time to time ha ha. cheers
  21. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    You Got Lucky---best version?

    Do you like the song on its own, like let's say on Greatest Hits or in concert? Did you like the first clip I posted, that version of it? cheers
  22. They could be. The '81 tour is prime Heartbreakers, you've got all the early records represented along with the new and different Hard Promises. You've got at least one set list (maybe more) with Casa Dega and Nightwatchman played. You've got high energy Heartbreakers and moody Heartbreakers. And the shows were longer, maybe 2 hours, 2 hours twenty minutes. For people who love Stan's drumming here it is in all its power and behind the beat. The '91 tour is the last one with Stan and both points to the beginning of the band and its end as it was before Wildflowers. You've got a generous amount of ITGWO songs, Stan taking a singing spotlight, Mike and Ben's instrumentals, the coolest backdrop they've ever had (besides the Echo tour with its simple rugs and chandelier) with the giant fairy tale tree. The concerts are about two hours long, American Girl and Breakdown have been completely stripped back to acoustic versions, the last time American Girl wouldn't take the final song of the night spot. While the FMF songs are played quite a bit they are still relatively new. It's the last tour that Refugee gets extended and the first and last tour with the electric straight ahead version of Learning To Fly. It's the last tour before Greatest Hits comes out and the nature of their tours changes. ITGWO songs have a different energy, not quite the regular TPATH sound but not exactly like FMF but some uneasy combination of the two making for some interesting sounds. Despite whatever the backstage was like, on stage there was this happy upbeat energy. Looking back at set list length I think these two tours are the best they played with Stan though i would give a tip of the hat to the '93 homecoming show. What do you think? cheers
  23. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    You Got Lucky---best version?

    I realize this is a bit off topic but did you see the 7/10/99 Echo show in Boston? Or Mansfield actually? That's one of my favorite TPATH bootlegs, if you haven't heard it I highly recommend it. cheers
  24. MaryJanes2ndLastDance

    Photo of the Day IV: Don't it feel like Heaven

    I agree but it is interesting to see what was almost there. I don't know but this art while striking doesn't seem to fit the feel of ITGWO. cheers
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