Shelter
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Posts posted by Shelter
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hey, the more the merrier, hu
thanks for posting!
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^ Thank you kindly! Could perhaps be an issue of versions, but I will look into that then.
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No European cities in the top 5 for TPATHB as a band and all 5 cities in the 'band top 5 chart' being in the US might go some way to explaining why the band don't tour Europe more often and tour the US so often.
Or the other way around....
You really can make statistics say what you want. And after all, while Connection is one thing that can be statistically cornered, Casuality is a vastly different animal.
As for TP&TH touring US heavily and that they have more fans there, I think that is true. But I also think they have more fans there, because they toured so much over the years. After all, there is a known truth in the business that in order to break through, or even maintaining position (up to a certain level), on a certain market, you need to be seen and heard on that market. Traditionally that has meant radio, records, merch, and tours. The radio part of course changed a bit in the digital age, but most of the logic still rings basically s true.*
And as far as Europe seemingly prefering TP solo over TP&TH band goes, I think that is really the result of brand tinkering more than anything.
I am fairly certain that..
a ) most EU fans, at least the casual ones spinning the Spotify numbers, don't care or even realize that there are a difference between TP and TP&TH. To them it's surely and mostly just a minor and confusin inconvienience that there are two different artist entries for Learning to Fly and Free Fallin'. Besides, the solo hits are represented on the band's compilation albums and the band songs are found on several "playlists" under the sole moniker Tom Petty, so..... People may and do have strong preferences in terms of songs, but Tom Petty or TP&TH are all the same to most people, I'm sure. It's not that radical difference. It's all Tom Petty to them, just like it's (at least more or less) is all TP&TH to me and most die-hards. Still, even a chimeric watershed can apperently be used statistically, so....
and b ) that this is true for the vast majority of US fans as well. It's not like the band chose to play more band songs when touring US (or more hard core cataloge stuff, covers and so on - cept at the occasional residency.) The "solo hits" constitutes the main part of the never changing core of the set at all times, regardless of geography, and the only difference between playing the home market or abroad that is detectable to me, is the touring frequency, which again could be tied to the band's personal reasons, practical reasons or market reasons, in which case we're back with the assumptions we started with. The chicken or the egg and all that.
Either way, it's very interesting.
And I'd still want some guidance, some hints as to where I can find this stuff, to check it out further in depth, myself. Can't find anything in the player or on the Spotify website.
Thanks
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*In short - to ponder further - not touring EU in over 20 years, did have some impact on their popularity in EU, no? Or, people suddenly stopped care after FMF and ITGWO (that had been two of the most popular records around in some regions) so they decided to stop coming over? Or why didn't they come to Scandinavia, where they've been comparatively popular all the time? Or, how about.. when suddenly in 2012 - with no record or new hit at all to ride on - they were again so vastly popular in EU - or what - that they decided to give it a go crossing the Atlantic again? Or, they just felt like it being a fun thing to do, coming back here for various reasons, and with the office thinking it wise and all, that it would boost popularity (and sales) a bit again, if they came over. Again. You can tweak numbers which ever way you want, but in what direction do they connect really, what is the casuality?
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Yeah, thanks for sharing! Cool stuff.
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Not a religious man myself, but I must admit.. That kit is sweet!
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When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro
HST
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^ That is very true, as it stands - granted that there is a law against rotation. A rotation by which any show longer than 28 minutes can be both both varied and contain a cover or two, without having to give up a fairly firm hits focus, and by which a TP typical 90 minutes set is an ocean of time. To my knowledge there are no such law. I see what you say, but I still say this issue is more about approach than stamina. Why not try to be creative? See the possibilities? The sky is the limit as long as you can play more then five songs, that's what I'd like to say. Of course, I only have fractions of cents to speak for me
I just don't see how these are excluding dimensions that can't coexist. Perhaps I'm daft to believe TP when he talks about what he wants to do, but then so be it. And as far as covers go, just listening to the BT show will show anyone in doubt that there ks nothing wrong with the passion and knowledge, as we've seen time and time again through the years. Now if only that anti rotation law was standing in the way, they could bring along both two or three more originals and as many covers that their tour bus could carry, without clogging up the set or stretching the show past bedtime. If there's a will, there's a way, I'd say. They do what they want, I bet. -
More Luna, less Angel Dream, for sure.. Infact I almost daren't say it, but as much I am hooked on most aspects of TP songwriting and the stage the band's been in for the last few years, the promise of a new album of originals (techno or not) and all that, I'd kinda fancy a deep down gritty and swinging rock'n'roll cover record. If Jack White went ahead and did with TP&TH what Rick Rubin (and TP&TH, coincidentally) did for Johnny Cash, I'd be more than eager to hear it. A dream come true to hear some MC vs JW team work. An album like that would also be kinda out of character and thus both surely fantastic and the biggest surprise. I can post a set list for such album, upon request.. So that they will know what to do.
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Yes, perhaps so. I's just trying to voice my impatience by putting on a.. speculative face. Still TP is on record saying it's all done, just waiting for WB to release it, so we're left with the hardest part no matter what..
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^Indeed.
Give those no good sons of b.. another month or so to ponder their position, and it will be highly unlikely that they will be able to squeeze out both Mudcrutch and All The Rest on this side of next spring. Unless it is, indeed, already highly unlikely. Despite all the far and wide talk for what seems like years.. oh wait.. it is years. Well, the waiting truly is the hardest part, I've been told. (It all just makes me wonder what did happend to that talked about live album from last year's tour.. I guess not, hu?). I've also been told talk is cheap, so I keep holding my breath for everything to break loose any day now..
Even if it perhaps feels less like the TP I thought I knew about, I've heard there's a trend in these modern communication days of technology, to just release things out of the blue, to create at least a bit of stir in the short attention spans of our contemporary minds - that it's part of modern day marketing to do it like that. Fair enough then - tomorrow will be as good a day as any... Mark my words. If and whenever something is eventually out, it will be very interesting and highly likely to be awesome.
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I too have to disagree. Perhaps not surprisingly.
As I've stated elsewhere, I think of music almost as a most cosmic experience - an artform that optimally, at least when played and performed live, extends far beyond any brand or copy write. That is, it's an integral part of the rock'n'roll tradition and history - and of music in general, as an oral and communal tradition - to perform, interpret, spread and share stuff that sometimes someone else came up with.
Thus, the amount of covers don't bother me at all. I could take even more of them (especially if it meant that I had to hear fewer takes on Runnin' Down a Dream, as it were). Although - I will say that I think that sometimes they tend to stick to the same cover stuff for too long. That is, I wouldn't say that the amount of covers is what prevent them from varying their own stuff to a much more reasonable degree - one does not exclude the other, as Marion suggests we can indeed have it all, of course we can! - but the main problem TP seems to have with his own stuff, does actually transmit to the borrowd stuff as well, at least to some degree. It's all about... yeah, you guessed it, ladies and gentlemen: Rotation!!
That said, I'm am torn when it comes to the live record context and the Live Anthology example MJ2LD brought up (and Pack Up The Plantation has five of them!). On the one hand, as long as a record documents a whole show, or whole tour, whatever amount of covers that were played need to be represented. Or in general, if you try to reflect the TP show experience on disc, there will need to be a few covers included. On the other hand, when compiling a collection of live cuts from the whole career and various sources, like Live Anthology, it could indeed be argued that the cause had been much better served had they cut back on the ridiculous 25% cover rate, agreed. I guess to some defgree this is what happens when 10-15 songs have stayed they same for each show in over 20 years of touring and once you have put those "core" songs on the live compilation set, you don't want to put another eight different versions of Free Fallin' spread over four discs just as filler - but still, there are obviously a lot more original gems to highlight on such a box than they went with, perhaps keeping the covers down to one or so per disc, I believe you are right. And since PUTP was suggesting an almost 33% cover rate for the Southern Accents Tour, I'd say that is over the top too.
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^ Unfortunately, I think you are right. I don't know of any live version either.
But in terms of fun videos.. there is also these two from the same french Houba Houba show from 1982. Bad quality, but it seems like 1982 was indeed a very good year for this band creatively speaking (although an outtake song and Wild Thing is not what I'd chose if I had so much good new original stuff going, it seems like such a filler pick too - almost as if they contractually were just allowed to play them one song from the album.. but if so.. why not the single.. hm.. this performance is odd, but great never the less).
Me, I just love the vibe and sound they had in those days. Definately personal favorites, and while I might not agree to every aspect of your above review, I sure do agree - like would so many TP&TH fans - that LAD is indeed both badly underrated and the core stuff of legend. A really, really great album. Great songs (on paper - see other discussion
) and great arrangements and sounds abound! Not a bad or boring or filler note on the whole record, if you asked me. You didn't. But I just needed to support the cause, somehow. I need to hear so many of those LAD songs live ASAP!Anyway here's the Houba..
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Hm.. interesting. Exciting and depressing at the same time.. since I guess it's safe to say both nurktwin and tomfest are probably spot on in their assumptions. On the one hand we all know we are reduced to customers and numbers, on the other, this may well be a sign that "All The Rest" has finally(!!) been assigned a date by WB or that Mudcrutch 2 is ready for launch. One would think that, in a just world, any info or bait would be plain in sight before you are asked to pay, if there is anything coming up. Unless the office is looking to have you guys pay twice (stranger things have happened!) - once now, asap and once when the VIP 40th Anniversary HCC membership package (with all you can eat cheese, brand cutlery, official sponsor rental cars, zippo lighters, beer openers and a chance to maybe buy tickets) will be announced within weeks. Ok, these thoughts of mine are not random at all..
How's this for random: my harvest of beetroot have failed. Bummer.
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^ Quite right. I'm not here to convert you. Just answered your question really, trying to specify my view. Then a bit further yet, since you started talking of versions, reproducing the studio version and so on, which was largely beside my point. Other than that - to each their own, as always.
(And you're right - discussions are often fun and interesting in their own right. I am even a firm believer in the fruitfulness of discussing things not distinctly right or wrong or even measurable in the usual sense. I am quite certain that aspects and angles of other people's taste can be both interesting and educational, that some aspects are of more in-depth importance than others and that it's sometimes way beyond just thinking something is great or not - there is always a why and how that can be compared and teach us something, even if I had no intention of tangle myself up in this right here and now and chosed to be brief - and vague, surely
- rather than writing a 10.000 words essay of all the whys and hows behind my belief that I Won't Back Down is a Little(!) more stuck in Jukebox mode than American Girl, no matter how many versions they come up with. But just cause I didn't feel like making this a thesis of academic proportions, I am quite sure it can be done. I am even certain that there are loads of interesting and debatable layers of objective in the subjective, if you catch my drift, that there can be technical aspects that can be compared and conclusions that can be reached even behind the end point of "just because". Besides, I think all questions, when traced back far enough ends with a "just because" and that in general philosophy serves us better than simple numeric statistics that can easily be verified or refuted. Ok. Now I really derailed it. But I can't really make myself any more clear I'm afraid. Speaking of discussing things.. I ramble.. ) -
^ I guess this is a bit of a side to the topic by now, but to further ponder it: I mentioned those examples, since I think they represent the kind of songs that have more of a hard time shedding their aura, for lack of a better word, than a song like American Girl, that somehow manages to be bigger than both it's original context and even it's creators. If that makes sense. More than enough dignity here to avoid the jukebox vibe otherwise so often associated with old habits songs.
Again, my point - while hard to put into words - has nothing to do with trying to or succeeding at reproducing an original recording or not. (If anything, as a general rule, I'm against such ambitions, and hence it's no wonder that I am more in favor of songs, the more they survive out of their context.) A radically reworked version of one song can feel more like a "self-cover" than a safe true-to-blueprint version of another song, depending on the makings of said material. It is, again, as I see it, somehow and somewhere inside the song as a composition how well this will work. That is not to say that Free Fallin or I Won't Back Down are not classic, even anthematic stuff. Just that they, to me, will never - regardless of version - be able to reach as far outside their context as many other and often times commercially lesser TP songs. There is, after all, a difference between hype and taste, even if too many people seem to think not.
Or like this: if a mega hit deeply associated with TP perhaps gets "tied" to this context/existence inescapably - and both American Girl and I Won't Back Down would be so in this case, I don't refute this - I still think there are something, not sure what, that makes the latter a grand TP classic and the former more of a universally eternal song. Both on paper, on record and in hype, as it were - and hitting all three is a fairly rare thing even in TP land - where so many of the best songs seem to miss out on the hype and so many great recordings fail to ever get played live.
And what I really meant to imply initially, when bringing American Girl up as the perhaps most famous example of timeless qualities that extend and override any recording (and live somewhere within the sheet music perhaps?) was that I think that TP has written many such songs that rarely or never get due credit or even the rarest live slots.
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^ It didn't intend to dethrone your enjoyment of IANTM as the nr 1 freak thing here!
In fact, I don't think what I said - at least not what I meant - is that radical. There's been lots of water under the bridges, is all. The ultra intense, cocky, yelping, somewhat dark American Girl of 1976 wouldn't be either possible or desireble to "reproduce" by a band of old timers. Thankfully the song, as composition, free from the recording details of arrangement and delivery, IMO are timeless and have been gradually reworked for the stardom era, then the mature temper and sound of latter days, without becoming a case of TP&TH covering TP&TH. Really good songs do that, they follow. Lesser songs and even more so lesser bands tend to go the jukebox way, simply trying to honor the "perfect" version or era you mention, rather than the song itself - and thus running the unavoidable risk for the artist of looking both desperate and pathetic.
Or like this: Some compositions (as opposed to recordings in this here context - even though I suppose AG can be claimed for both) age better and contains more timeless qualities and possibilities than others, is all. Again, while I enjoy a song like Hometown Blues in it's original, slightly naive charm, I'm pretty sure they couldn't have brought it along, transformed it, over the years with the same smooth dignity as they have American Girl.
To stretch this logic even further, one could argue to some length (and I would, if I had the time and energy, and perhaps it is not for this thread anyway) - that despite trying their best to tweak them at times, and what else can they do when playing these songs each and every night, perfectly great songs like I Won't Back Down and Free Fallin' are slightly more stuck in their respective recording, as it were, a tad more "dated" and thus a also come across a tad more like TP playing TP covers. Still good songs, of course. And that may also be a radical stand.. and certainly just me.. but.. hey.. I rest my case, please "make-it-last-all-night!!"
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Is it me or am I sensing some restraint
in defending one of your favorites if not your favorite. Not that a defense is needed of course, there's no attack, only opinion.cheers
Ah, sweet restraint.. Not for me.
Besides, martin here pretty much sums it up. Very well put. I look forward to more sweet sense in the second half ponderings of that.
I could add, that to me - and I might have said this before somewhere - Something Big seems like some sort of poor man's Hotel California. Very film noir indeed, about this barely noticeble character, perhaps one of the 'shadow people' who, while Eagles 'can check out any time they like, but never can leave', is trying desperately to find his way in, to catch a break, 'working on something big'. Really, really love this song, one of those core favorites of all time.
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Oh, I can see a lot's been going on since I've been away color coding my TP records..
Yeah.. I'm not up for a tirade here and now, but most of that is crazy talk to my ears. Hard Promises to me, is one of those albums that define TP&TH. Chilling core stuff. Excellent songwriting all over. If anything, Nightwatchman - a song that most fans seem to like a lot - is what stands out as a bit "weak" to me, in terms of songwriting, but it still fits the vibe of the album well enough and does have a great groove, so.. I have no complaints.
Hard Promises not being a Torpedoes 2 is the whole point. This is where TP not only excelled at what he already been doing. This is where he prooved he's no 70s garage rock icon - he is a multi dimensional song writing genius. This is where he prooved that the future could hope for more of the Lousiana Rain type quality songwriting. That that one was no fluke. Btw - I think this album has a wonderful flow - it's just not your fastest, wildest or straighest flow - and that it is one of their best effort. I leave it with that.
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I never meant weird as a pejorative. They are pretty much considered the least weird band around, the perception is of a good old american rock pop band. I don't think most consider their music odd or strange but I think it's because most aren't even aware of the majority of their recordings while being overly familiar with their hits. But I think they are stranger than that. True, they're not creating atonal musical experiments but their overall result is less straightforwardly rock-n-roll than they're generally considered.
I think there is something to that. More than a few times I've encountered people who badly misjudge or underrate TP&TH, simply because they think the Greatest Hits album (or rather the Jeff Lynne era singles + American Girl, Refugee and Mary Jane - or in some cases Full Moon Fever alone) tells the whole story. Which clearly is not the case. Good point.
As for judging the first album (and the second.. or any album, for that matter), other than general taste I think it's important to keep track of a few dimensions.. When it was recorded and in what place (mentally, physically, band's/member's age), being key aspects. To me, the first album, and even more so the second one, are great albums in their own right - good songs, good flow, good sound, good looks abound. But I'm even more fond of these records when keeping in mind that TP&TH were youngsters, comparatively, when they were written and recorded, and when keeping in mind how other music sounded like around the same time. It's simply great stuff out of time and of it's time.
It's obvious that a song like American Girl have stood the test of time very well, but the point here is that I don't think the current live version is great in the same ways or for the same reasons exactly, as is the original recording. In some ways it's not even the same song. That is, to me AG was both recorded in a way that made it great - even on the border on mind tingling - and written in a way that made it possible not only to cut it as an instant classic back then, but also for old geezers to make it evolve, to make gold out of it time and time again to this day onwards. And I think this multi layered quality, of being great both on the record and on paper, goes for many of the other songs on the first albums as well. The Wild One, Forever, Fooled Again and Luna especially.. Songs that I think it's some kind of art-crime that they don't play occasionally even nowadays. Songs that are both good as dated tracks on an old record and great timeless stuff ready to revisit and reshape at any time. If only..
And this is not an obvious thing. Sometimes it takes the world of ears to change to have a song get due credit long after the fact, other times it may have sounded good upon relese just to be outdated all too soon. Yet other times a song can be great in their time, in their context or in a certain version only, which means it stays great but don't exactly lend itself too well to be interpreted or developed the way American Girl has. And the first album, to me, has such songs too, contributing to making it an awesome and absolutely great 1976 album by a bunch of wild ones, that is a perfect listen to this day. Most notably this goes for Rockin' Around (With You) and Hometown Blues - songs that I like, that I think are fun, that were a good idea to include on that first effort, but I have no interest in hearing them do old guys' takes of. (The former because it would take a pose that I don't think would add anything of interest and the latter because it was just an immature (if fun and talanted) early attempt at what they are so much better at and suited for these days.)
All in all, I think this early stuff have aged incredibly well. It sounds cool for it's time and it still sounds cool. Most of it would even hold up as songwriting to this day.
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or covered by the Heartbreakers. I guess I'm an addict....
Haha, yeah, isn't it funny how even the stuff they cover so often gets picked up as a "cover cover". Inspirational stuff. Happened a lot here too. I always liked bands like Animals or Kinks, but certain titles grew on me tons thanks to TP&TH. Gotta Move, for example.. although I never figured out a good way to play it on my own..
Do you like the evolution of the Heartbreakers sound?
in Great Wide Open
Posted · Edited by Shelter · Report reply
Quite some interesting stuff here, kudos. Thanks for sharing thoughts and expanding a bit on some of it. I guess we all have our own personal journey with this material, not only in the order it was released or who produced what, but in the order we were struck by the songs or albums. Supposedly that will always tint even our most 'academic' efforts to view it in hindsight, make sense of it and communicate the subjective ups and downs of it all.
Personally I feel there is a lot to be said for both the producer aspect and the TP personal/songwriting aspect. At times the actual albums does not paint the whole picture though, which is important to realize. Consider the outtakes, the aborted sessions, the what-could-have-been aspects of albums like Southern Accents, Wildflowers.. sometimes the upstairs office, or even the producer, haven't only helped defining a stage in the development in terms of how an album sounds, but also in terms of what was left off, the dimensions of DTT or LAA that was down-played or tucked away by Iovine, how they marketed Mojo as a blues album, at the same time leaving some of the most brilliant electric blues off the album, much as the fitting blues subcontext of Echo was left for a b-side and so on... Sometimes the stage that TP&TH really are in only show in part on the album and the real "development" over time is a lot more complicated and back and forth than following the albums chronologically would suggest.
And I still like the Stan aspect too. Even if it's just part of the deal. like I said elsewhere, I think the moods and evolution of TPs writing style - the epiphanies that were the Wilburys experience, Lynne and Rubins recording methods, Mudcrutch (should not be understated I think!!) and what have you - and the temper of Stans drumming always was a source of fantastic moments, huge tension, of great possibilities and crippling train wreck sessions. This is bound to be heard in the material. Thus I think it's very true that as perfect the TP/SL mix was in the early and "classic" years (even if - IMO - Iovine didn't understand this fully and didn't make the most of it), Steve stepping in was probably for the better in terms of where things headed in the 90s and early 00s. (To ponder replacing Stan with another anti drum machine guy - being it Grohl or anyone - always felt like a "sham of a mockery" to me. Stupid really, had they not fully changed direction in this department, the way they finally did.)
If anything, Steve probably should've stepped in - speaking studio here - already from ITGWO on (rather than tweaking, copy and paste Stan to pieces, having Steve do the 'heavy and straight' machine like stuff he does best to arrive at a similar end) . And while the Heartbreakers live sound always had - IMO - a theoretically perfect match/ fit / place for Stan Lynch - the evolution indeed proved that his wild child madness would have been misplaced on most of Wildflowers, Echo, DJ, but then again could have been as interesting and fitting as ever for sessions like Mojo and Hypnotic Eye. So, while a lot of what you say in the above makes a lot of sense to me, in the "Stan Lynch vs TP songwriting" dimension, it's more a comming full circle kind of thing - if on a whole other level of maturity this time, of course - than a linear development/evolution.
The development of the live sound is a discussion in itself. In some ways it takes on a lot more linear, or at least kinda 'hammock:y', in shape, IMO. That is I like the 'snotty:ness' of the Shelter years a lot (no wonder, considering who they were named after) because of how jangling, groovy, snarling yet rackety it was, and the early 80s because of how it combined those qualities with a sort of weight, a learning-the-game, we-are-now-the-big-time sort of aura. I also like what they manage to do with the Lynne sound in a live context during the 91-92 tour - a sort of brief newfound boost as I hear it (and I'm not sure what part of the 'hammock' shape that would be). But most of all, I think the gradually growing thickness, dynamics, heavyness, groove, the increasing bass and drum drive that has eveloped in the last 10-12 years (and especially since the Mudcrutch and Mojo tours) is clearly fantastic! That in most ways they have never sounded better as they do right now.
Btw - Perhaps it's time to honor the possibilities for the big 40 - bring Stan along for some songs or for some double drummer action - if any Anniversary shows will happen next year. Such feature will have me travel the world to see it. Even if the setlist will be all the same.
Anyway, good thinking guys! Good reading!