Shelter

^ Yes, thanks for sharing those thoughts. I believe they are very well founded and well put. The Stan and Steve issue has been discussed elsewhere, both recently and through the years, but I think it a very poignant dimension to mention here,and I'mglad you did. FMF as a watershed of sorts, in terms of drumming, and perhaps of the rhythm section in general, cutting Howie back too. It sure became an under played aspect of the band for quite some time. A new TP ideal, as it were. In recent years, the new material seem to suggest an opening, but despite such openings and despite Mudcrutch, Mojo and Hypnotic Eye all showing, ever so slightly, a new dawn in the bass department, to which both Ron and TP have contributed (man, I love how TP handles the bass duty, must say, so very very drawling and smitten), still nothing too exciting seems to be on the horiszon in terms of drums. (I'm not sure how much further Randall could or even would need to go - Mudcrutch context and material has so far been served perfectly as I see it - but in the Heartbreakers context, I have again started to miss the Stan factor in recent years, as I have confessed elsewhere. For the first time since.. well.. a long time, a majority of the new material seem to beg for a tad, just a tad, more adventurous drumming lately, perhaps more band approach in general. Anyway.. I think you are right about how integral the Lynne era was to these changes of vision in TP, and in the Heartbreakers' sound. It's not always an immense difference, mind you - of course not - and the fact that the minimalistic set up served FMF quite well and that the general frippery of ITGWO masked the effect to most casual listeners for a few years more, there was a certain dynamic and soulful rock'n'roll aspect of what had been the Heartbreakers sound disappearing with FMF. Again, all this have been discussed elsewhere, so I won't bring up all the various takes and angles of it in this thread, but it sure is an interesting side of any FMF analysis, any ponderings of the sound and the times, to keep this in mind.

Sweet!

Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts! Sounds about right from my point of view, more or less. Agreed about 'excusing' the new stuff like that. Stupid, if I may be so blunt. He may as well have said 'Sorry I'm kinda great.. and that you all are cheap bastards, lacking in vision'. Sometimes it too bad he's such a gentleman, having to humiliate himself like that for absolutely no reason other than perhaps sucking up to the most mindless elements of the crowd. ( If he feels like sucking up, I'd much rather he suck up to his fans and the people trusting his talent and musical judgement, right?? ) One thing though... from one TP aficionado to another.. how hard can it be to listen to all of Mojo already?? If there was any TP material ready available that I hadn't heard, I'd be all over it.

That really is an underrated song, one of my favorites. And a fantastic perfomance too! Thanks for posting!

As habit has it, I have to make myself a lot more clear. I meant that yes - I do believe there was shift of paradigms for the 1991/92 tour, what with the production value, visually and sonically, sound effects, bringing in Scott to handle some of the various instrumental fills and so on (that was 91, wasn't it?). They clearly wanted to bring some of the ITGWO magic with them on stage. If they fully succeeded is beside the point. (I suppose "no" will suffice, it may indeed not have happened at all.) But you are right, either way the "Jeff sound" didn't last very long. And that's not what I was saying. At least not what I meant. I just think the 91/92 tour was a major move from various angles, and one that set wheels in motion towards the future. I do feel that TP&TH developted and matured a lot from touring with Bob (86/87) but in terms of their own tours, judging from countless tapes, cds, videos, I feel that they were a bit stuck soundwise since the grand 1982 tour, until 1991 again opened the door for things to start moving. This is not to say that 1991 delivered "heaviness" as a done deal, just that suddenly a lot of the set up changed and steps were taken towards what later became another key development step for the Wildflowers tour, another for the Fillmore recidency, yet another for the Vic recidency and then finally a more noticeble marked step for the Mojo tour. So, like I said.. like any development, it's all steps, just that some are more important than others, and 1991, with all the ambitions, seems to have been a watershed, and eye opener, a game changer or you name it.. that's all I meant. It didn't last. It wasn't "heavy". I was just trying to find a starting point, really. And in some ways I think the 1991 tour broke some kinda spell. In other ways, of course, what you find to be phases of development and what you find to be slightly more "stagnant" (for lack of better words) phases is a subjective matter - It's always fair to say they've developed all the time.

A po-po-po-poker face, if I ever seen one! After that night in Vegas.. and the hell that we went through.

Happy birthday!!

Oh, I forgot to mention.. It's not that I think SL - in terms of drumming skills - couldn't have handled the material. Of course he could've. I just meant that perhaps the recording methods, the lesser need for a real live drummer that we've seen to this day, as well as part of the material, gradually became less and less according to his taste and desires, as much as his personal style and temper became less and less according to the desires of TP and the producers of said era. Perhaps it was mutual and all for the better. "Personality wise".. and all that, yeah.. Probably the bigger part of it all, would be my guess. Simple as that. It was an age old antagonism by 1994. But that is not to say that I think TP (or SL, for that matter) was neccesarily right in every aspect of this development, musically. That is, IMO, neither a subtle change in writing style nor a change of studio/recording practices, had to be on the expense of SL. I think he could've done a great job and contributed another dimension to the era/material than did Steve. Better, worse or equal but different, who knows? I would guess - at least equal but different. Nevertheless - it will always be a mighty irony to me, that entered Rick Rubin - a producer that could finally do SL real studio justice if he wanted to, who understood temper and could make some really awesome use of the SL style - and the bulk of the material in the pipeline was a tad mellow for such cause, and SL was on his way out anyway. Too bad, I would have loved to hear what SL could've done to Honey Bee or You Wreck Me for starters.. Especially the latter could have benefited, IMO, from some #ss kicking, runaway qualities, rather than the flat, if perfect, time keeping it got. Oh, sweet irony. Or put like this: I understand the shift to Steve, even if I think the development towards less "soul" or "temper" (for lack of better) wasn't neccesarily the best choice for the Music in general - if indeed it was a choice. It turned out great both live and on record, but who knows what we could've had had Stan stayed abroad. No use speculating really, but to me it's fairly obvious that at least theoretically, had he been allowed to flourish, Stan probably could've done more good to the Steve era albums than vice versa. Again, that is not say that it's bad the way it went. After all, I did just say that the last few years have seen TP&TH developed to a sonic dimension they have never - even if they've always been great and one of the best band in the game - reached before. But still... Could there have been other and/or narrower pathways towards such goals? Or is it in the personal development too? Even in the development of hardware, tech over time, comparing the rig of 2014 with that of 1987 and... working with the right people..? All of the above? All of the above!

Sure is. Thing is, to me it's hard to tell when this "shift" started, if there even is a starting point. I remember being impressed of how the sound had evolved in a rich, dynamic direction, when hearing the Filmore 1997 recordings and then again a clearly noticeble step at the Vic, as you say - in 2003 I remember thinking that they couldn't possibly sound any better, ever. Then again in 2008, the back to basics and dynamics, fun of Mudcrutch was mindblowing, in 2010 I was blown away of how they turned the lever yet another notch, and slightly even more so in 2012 and 2014, so indeed.. where did it start and where will it end? Of course, in hindsight I've heard an even bigger "step" between the 1989 and 1991 tours, and perhaps that - the trying and succeeding in bringing the Jeff sound on stage - was the real starting point for the journey towards the "heaviness, groove, the increasing bass and drum drive" I mentioned.. or perhaps they've been at it all the time. Just briefly pausing a few times on the way. (If anything, seen from a reverse angle, I say the 83-89, 1998-2002, 2006-2008 eras were "pauses" in that live sound sense, if hugely important for the development in their ways anyway!)

Yes. A ton. Literally. http://www.bobdylan.com/us/thecuttingedge_completetracklisting Mother of ¤"#. That's what I call "outtake box set", an understatement of the century. Here I am, secretely hoping for TP to ever do something at least 10% worth of the kind, or at least get the "All The Rest" out already, and again Bob shows up, telling us who's top dog. Impressive on the border of lunacy, really. A key, defining moment in the history of rock layed out in detail.

Apart from it being nice to be so generously quoted, I must say.. It is hard to find any serious flaws on FMF. Obviously classic stuff, incredibly great and important album, both in it's own right and as part of the TP legacy. Even for a minor Jeff sceptic like myself, it's hard not to be impressed with how it sounds too. It really is. Admittedly. For most parts it fits the material too, let's not forget. It's not my all time favorite, for various reasons - the songs being played to death and back again three times over, which is hard to handle for anyone with an even remotely normal attention span, being just one of them - but it will always be up there somewhere. How could it not be? (It would be like suggesting that say.. Hard Promises being one of there weaker albums, right?! ) Besides, just being in the top 5 or 6 of TP records - in my world - means it's an absolute masterpiece of a record, generally speaking.

Quite some interesting stuff here, kudos. Thanks for sharing thoughts and expanding a bit on some of it. I guess we all have our own personal journey with this material, not only in the order it was released or who produced what, but in the order we were struck by the songs or albums. Supposedly that will always tint even our most 'academic' efforts to view it in hindsight, make sense of it and communicate the subjective ups and downs of it all. Personally I feel there is a lot to be said for both the producer aspect and the TP personal/songwriting aspect. At times the actual albums does not paint the whole picture though, which is important to realize. Consider the outtakes, the aborted sessions, the what-could-have-been aspects of albums like Southern Accents, Wildflowers.. sometimes the upstairs office, or even the producer, haven't only helped defining a stage in the development in terms of how an album sounds, but also in terms of what was left off, the dimensions of DTT or LAA that was down-played or tucked away by Iovine, how they marketed Mojo as a blues album, at the same time leaving some of the most brilliant electric blues off the album, much as the fitting blues subcontext of Echo was left for a b-side and so on... Sometimes the stage that TP&TH really are in only show in part on the album and the real "development" over time is a lot more complicated and back and forth than following the albums chronologically would suggest. And I still like the Stan aspect too. Even if it's just part of the deal. like I said elsewhere, I think the moods and evolution of TPs writing style - the epiphanies that were the Wilburys experience, Lynne and Rubins recording methods, Mudcrutch (should not be understated I think!!) and what have you - and the temper of Stans drumming always was a source of fantastic moments, huge tension, of great possibilities and crippling train wreck sessions. This is bound to be heard in the material. Thus I think it's very true that as perfect the TP/SL mix was in the early and "classic" years (even if - IMO - Iovine didn't understand this fully and didn't make the most of it), Steve stepping in was probably for the better in terms of where things headed in the 90s and early 00s. (To ponder replacing Stan with another anti drum machine guy - being it Grohl or anyone - always felt like a "sham of a mockery" to me. Stupid really, had they not fully changed direction in this department, the way they finally did.) If anything, Steve probably should've stepped in - speaking studio here - already from ITGWO on (rather than tweaking, copy and paste Stan to pieces, having Steve do the 'heavy and straight' machine like stuff he does best to arrive at a similar end) . And while the Heartbreakers live sound always had - IMO - a theoretically perfect match/ fit / place for Stan Lynch - the evolution indeed proved that his wild child madness would have been misplaced on most of Wildflowers, Echo, DJ, but then again could have been as interesting and fitting as ever for sessions like Mojo and Hypnotic Eye. So, while a lot of what you say in the above makes a lot of sense to me, in the "Stan Lynch vs TP songwriting" dimension, it's more a comming full circle kind of thing - if on a whole other level of maturity this time, of course - than a linear development/evolution. The development of the live sound is a discussion in itself. In some ways it takes on a lot more linear, or at least kinda 'hammock:y', in shape, IMO. That is I like the 'snotty:ness' of the Shelter years a lot (no wonder, considering who they were named after) because of how jangling, groovy, snarling yet rackety it was, and the early 80s because of how it combined those qualities with a sort of weight, a learning-the-game, we-are-now-the-big-time sort of aura. I also like what they manage to do with the Lynne sound in a live context during the 91-92 tour - a sort of brief newfound boost as I hear it (and I'm not sure what part of the 'hammock' shape that would be). But most of all, I think the gradually growing thickness, dynamics, heavyness, groove, the increasing bass and drum drive that has eveloped in the last 10-12 years (and especially since the Mudcrutch and Mojo tours) is clearly fantastic! That in most ways they have never sounded better as they do right now. Btw - Perhaps it's time to honor the possibilities for the big 40 - bring Stan along for some songs or for some double drummer action - if any Anniversary shows will happen next year. Such feature will have me travel the world to see it. Even if the setlist will be all the same. Anyway, good thinking guys! Good reading!

hey, the more the merrier, hu thanks for posting!

^ Thank you kindly! Could perhaps be an issue of versions, but I will look into that then.

Or the other way around.... You really can make statistics say what you want. And after all, while Connection is one thing that can be statistically cornered, Casuality is a vastly different animal. As for TP&TH touring US heavily and that they have more fans there, I think that is true. But I also think they have more fans there, because they toured so much over the years. After all, there is a known truth in the business that in order to break through, or even maintaining position (up to a certain level), on a certain market, you need to be seen and heard on that market. Traditionally that has meant radio, records, merch, and tours. The radio part of course changed a bit in the digital age, but most of the logic still rings basically s true.* And as far as Europe seemingly prefering TP solo over TP&TH band goes, I think that is really the result of brand tinkering more than anything. I am fairly certain that.. a ) most EU fans, at least the casual ones spinning the Spotify numbers, don't care or even realize that there are a difference between TP and TP&TH. To them it's surely and mostly just a minor and confusin inconvienience that there are two different artist entries for Learning to Fly and Free Fallin'. Besides, the solo hits are represented on the band's compilation albums and the band songs are found on several "playlists" under the sole moniker Tom Petty, so..... People may and do have strong preferences in terms of songs, but Tom Petty or TP&TH are all the same to most people, I'm sure. It's not that radical difference. It's all Tom Petty to them, just like it's (at least more or less) is all TP&TH to me and most die-hards. Still, even a chimeric watershed can apperently be used statistically, so.... and b ) that this is true for the vast majority of US fans as well. It's not like the band chose to play more band songs when touring US (or more hard core cataloge stuff, covers and so on - cept at the occasional residency.) The "solo hits" constitutes the main part of the never changing core of the set at all times, regardless of geography, and the only difference between playing the home market or abroad that is detectable to me, is the touring frequency, which again could be tied to the band's personal reasons, practical reasons or market reasons, in which case we're back with the assumptions we started with. The chicken or the egg and all that. Either way, it's very interesting. And I'd still want some guidance, some hints as to where I can find this stuff, to check it out further in depth, myself. Can't find anything in the player or on the Spotify website. Thanks ----- *In short - to ponder further - not touring EU in over 20 years, did have some impact on their popularity in EU, no? Or, people suddenly stopped care after FMF and ITGWO (that had been two of the most popular records around in some regions) so they decided to stop coming over? Or why didn't they come to Scandinavia, where they've been comparatively popular all the time? Or, how about.. when suddenly in 2012 - with no record or new hit at all to ride on - they were again so vastly popular in EU - or what - that they decided to give it a go crossing the Atlantic again? Or, they just felt like it being a fun thing to do, coming back here for various reasons, and with the office thinking it wise and all, that it would boost popularity (and sales) a bit again, if they came over. Again. You can tweak numbers which ever way you want, but in what direction do they connect really, what is the casuality?

Cool, thanks! Is there a link to where these things can be checked out further. My player doesn't seem to feature stuff like that.

Yeah, thanks for sharing! Cool stuff.

Amen!

Not a religious man myself, but I must admit.. That kit is sweet!

Yes, yes. Yes!!

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro HST

^ That is very true, as it stands - granted that there is a law against rotation. A rotation by which any show longer than 28 minutes can be both both varied and contain a cover or two, without having to give up a fairly firm hits focus, and by which a TP typical 90 minutes set is an ocean of time. To my knowledge there are no such law. I see what you say, but I still say this issue is more about approach than stamina. Why not try to be creative? See the possibilities? The sky is the limit as long as you can play more then five songs, that's what I'd like to say. Of course, I only have fractions of cents to speak for me I just don't see how these are excluding dimensions that can't coexist. Perhaps I'm daft to believe TP when he talks about what he wants to do, but then so be it. And as far as covers go, just listening to the BT show will show anyone in doubt that there ks nothing wrong with the passion and knowledge, as we've seen time and time again through the years. Now if only that anti rotation law was standing in the way, they could bring along both two or three more originals and as many covers that their tour bus could carry, without clogging up the set or stretching the show past bedtime. If there's a will, there's a way, I'd say. They do what they want, I bet.

More Luna, less Angel Dream, for sure.. Infact I almost daren't say it, but as much I am hooked on most aspects of TP songwriting and the stage the band's been in for the last few years, the promise of a new album of originals (techno or not) and all that, I'd kinda fancy a deep down gritty and swinging rock'n'roll cover record. If Jack White went ahead and did with TP&TH what Rick Rubin (and TP&TH, coincidentally) did for Johnny Cash, I'd be more than eager to hear it. A dream come true to hear some MC vs JW team work. An album like that would also be kinda out of character and thus both surely fantastic and the biggest surprise. I can post a set list for such album, upon request.. So that they will know what to do.

Yes, perhaps so. I's just trying to voice my impatience by putting on a.. speculative face. Still TP is on record saying it's all done, just waiting for WB to release it, so we're left with the hardest part no matter what..

^Indeed. Give those no good sons of b.. another month or so to ponder their position, and it will be highly unlikely that they will be able to squeeze out both Mudcrutch and All The Rest on this side of next spring. Unless it is, indeed, already highly unlikely. Despite all the far and wide talk for what seems like years.. oh wait.. it is years. Well, the waiting truly is the hardest part, I've been told. (It all just makes me wonder what did happend to that talked about live album from last year's tour.. I guess not, hu?). I've also been told talk is cheap, so I keep holding my breath for everything to break loose any day now.. Even if it perhaps feels less like the TP I thought I knew about, I've heard there's a trend in these modern communication days of technology, to just release things out of the blue, to create at least a bit of stir in the short attention spans of our contemporary minds - that it's part of modern day marketing to do it like that. Fair enough then - tomorrow will be as good a day as any... Mark my words. If and whenever something is eventually out, it will be very interesting and highly likely to be awesome.